My last post before Easter.. The question is this: If the one that works is far more expensive than CO= FDM on a like-for-like spec and we know that COFDM works then why not do = the obvious: ditch ATSC. But the loss of face for the Koreans would be wa= y too much to bear. Much better to simply obfuscate and stall! DN -------------Forwarded Message----------------- From: INTERNET:opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, INTERNET:opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx To: , INTERNET:opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx = Date: 25/03/105 12:53 PM RE: [opendtv] Re: Bob likes COFDM = dmenolan wrote: <DN insert: Alas, yes. COFDM does not really have a viable competitor = now. infinity for the 8VSB decoder that works. Its only the fantasists n this list who think its going to come good: economics has killed off = any interest in fixing 8VSB. There comes a time when you have to = a)either throw in the towel and adopt the other system b) reinvent the = wheel or c) ditch OTA TV altogether (unless you retain NTSC). Economics, = like death, is final. > I'm still not certain. Unless last years Shubin tests were somehow = completely fraudulent I think Bert is right and it is indeed possible to = make functional ATSC boxes. But they will likely be more expensive than = LG or anyone has really owned up to. So if Congress really cared they could pin down LG and maybe find out = how MUCH more expensive it would be for receivers to duplicate that = Shubin-proof box. If it is a question of economics then I really don't = understand how Congress proceed here without that one extremely = important small bit of information. It is a very simple question and LG already knows the answer. Make them = tell us. HOW MUCH MORE FOR THE ONE THAT WORKS? - Tom > Hi Frank., > = > Happy Easter bunnies! And see in-line... > = > = > Kind Regards, > = > Dermot Nolan > = > ------------ > = > RE: [opendtv] Re: Bob likes COFDM > = > =3D > = > Dermot wrote: > = >>Frank, >> >>However most people in the US are not currently affected as 85% are on >>cable/satellite, NTSC continues, and when the baloon goes up to reveal >>indoor OTA DTV doesn't work there will be such an outcry that, well fol= k=3D > = > s, > = >>NTSC will continue. > = > = > I disagree. There will be no outcry because very few people will bother= t=3D > o try, and thus not notice how unreliable indoor ATSC reception is. By = th=3D > e time NTSC is shut off, the 85% cable+sat figure will have grown to ne= ar=3D > ly 95%. Of the remaining single-digit percentage, many will be people w= ho=3D > simply have little interest in TV, whether digital or analog. Those ot= he=3D > rs who fall in the economic hardship category will be taken care of by = Un=3D > cle Sam at a modest cost -- very modest, relative to the spectrum aucti= on=3D > proceeds. =3D > = > = > DN INSERT: Jay's comments were quite apposite. The loss of the emergenc= y =3D > broadcast service will be an issue for FEMA, DoD etc and indeed in coas= ta=3D > l areas of other countries threatened by tsunami. All that needs to hap= pe=3D > n is for a disaster without any TV service (simple) being available and= t=3D > here will be an outcry. There are going to be significant consumer conv= en=3D > ience losses: one day its there, next day its gone.. > = > = >>The only people to lose their shirts will be CE and silicon vendors pre= p=3D > = > ared > = >>to spend millions of dollars on bleeding edge 8VSB technology: and how = m=3D > = > any CEOs, > = >>CFOs and investors will sanction that spend if there are no perceived m= a=3D > = > rkets? > = >>None: which is what we are seeing right now. The vendor community is wa= l=3D > = > king away.. > = > I think the vendor community walked away several years ago. But I still= c=3D > ontend that there is a market for "letter of the law" junk 8-VSB receiv= er=3D > s. The CE mfrs must put SOMETHING in those DTV sets to satisfy the mand= at=3D > e. Since almost nobody will use those receivers, the operative phrase i= s =3D > "the cheaper, the better." Suppose, for example, there was a performanc= e =3D > issue with closed caption decoders, such that a robust decoder added a = no=3D > ticeable dollar figure to the price of a TV set. How many consumers wou= ld=3D > voluntarily spend more for a closed caption decoder that "really works= w=3D > ell?" How many would opt for the "junk" quality decoder that was only s= o-=3D > so, but added $0 to the TV and was only included to satisfy some federa= l =3D > law? > = > DN insert: Of course. This is just going through the motions: don't act= ua=3D > lly *WANT* to incur the cost to make it work. CEA of course talk about = AT=3D > SC enabled sets: the more interesting real world figure would be ATSC *= CO=3D > NNECTED* sets to antennas.. A very small number. > = >>Now a 'completely new and unproven digital modulation technology': wasn= '=3D > = > t > = >>that what they said about COFDM in the period 1993-1998?. They are not >>laughing now.. > = > = > You're absolutely right. Now I'll remove my tongue from my cheek regard= in=3D > g the idea that "it may take a few more generations to get it right." I= t=3D > hought you'd pick up on my sarcasm there. =3D > = > DN insert: Alas, yes. COFDM does not really have a viable competitor no= w.=3D > n=3D3D infinity for the 8VSB decoder that works. Its only the fantasis= ts o=3D > n this list who think its going to come good: economics has killed off = an=3D > y interest in fixing 8VSB. There comes a time when you have to a)either= t=3D > hrow in the towel and adopt the other system b) reinvent the wheel or c= ) =3D > ditch OTA TV altogether (unless you retain NTSC). Economics, like death= , =3D > is final. > = > = > = >>What a tragic mess US DTV has become! > = > = > DN insert: I was referring solely to terrestrial digital television in = th=3D > e US, not the other systems, which as elsewhere in the world are doing = ve=3D > ry nicely. > = > On the contrary, it's moving along quite nicely. The quantity of HDTV p= ro=3D > gramming continues to grow, as do the number of HD displays in consumer= s'=3D > homes. Satellite is 100% digital, with more HD capacity on the horizon= . =3D > Cable has fully embraced HDTV and is moving rapidly to 100% digital sim= ul=3D > cast of analog channels, in preparation for the eventual shut-off of it= s =3D > NTSC tier. IPTV from the telcos is coming soon, and even wireless DTV o= n =3D > hand-held devices. > = > American consumers will soon have a plethora of wired & wireless DTV de= li=3D > very choices -- all using distribution networks that work. In that pres= en=3D > t and future digital entertainment world, 8VSB is but a minor footnote = of=3D > passing historical interest. And ATSC will be most remembered for givi= ng=3D > us a few "standards" that will withstand the test of time -- like 16:9= , =3D > 1080i and 720p, DD 5.1 -- and for at least a few more years, MPEG2. > DN insert: Leaving the one *free* distribution network that does not wo= rk=3D > to wither on the vine and die! The 'other' system had implemented 16x9= b=3D > efore ATSC and 5.1 is Dolby IPR. As for MPEG2 that was a global standar= d =3D > whose retirement home is beckoning on the horizon.. > = > Dermot > -- Frank > = > -------------Fo=3D > = > = > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > You can UNSUBSCRIBE from the OpenDTV list in two ways: > = > - Using the UNSUBSCRIBE command in your user configuration settings at = FreeLists.org = > = > - By sending a message to: opendtv-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word = unsubscribe in the subject line. > = > = = = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- You can UNSUBSCRIBE from the OpenDTV list in two ways: - Using the UNSUBSCRIBE command in your user configuration settings at Fr= eeLists.org = - By sending a message to: opendtv-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word un= subscribe in the subject line. ----------------------- Internet Header -------------------------------- Sender: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Received: from turing.freelists.org (freelists-180.iquest.net [206.53.239= .180]) by siaag2ad.compuserve.com (8.12.11/8.12.7/SUN-2.17) with ESMTP id j2PCq= I0g011975 for <dmenolan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 07:52:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by turing.freelists.org (Avenir Technologies Mail Multiplex) with ESMTP = id 3FAA1891B0; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 07:53:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from turing.freelists.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (turing [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18754-07; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 07:53:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from turing (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by turing.freelists.org (Avenir Technologies Mail Multiplex) with ESMTP = id B0978891A5; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 07:53:07 -0500 (EST) Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list opendtv); Fri, 25 Mar 2005 07:52:40 = -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Delivered-To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by turing.freelists.org (Avenir Technologies Mail Multiplex) with ESMTP = id 3E5EF89164 for <opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 07:52:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from turing.freelists.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (turing [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18667-05 for <opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 07:52:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.= 85]) by turing.freelists.org (Avenir Technologies Mail Multiplex) with ESMTP = id D1F8789116 for <opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 07:52:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from [192.168.0.11] (c-24-129-87-71.hsd1.fl.comcast.net[24.129.= 87.71]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with ESMTP id <2005032512523801400sd0ele>; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 12:52:39 +0000= Message-ID: <424409D9.9030108@xxxxxxxxxxx> Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 07:53:45 -0500 From: Tom Barry <trbarry@xxxxxxxxxxx> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.1 (Windows/20040626) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [opendtv] Re: Bob likes COFDM References: <200503250434_MC3-1-9998-4D34@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> In-Reply-To: <200503250434_MC3-1-9998-4D34@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Content-type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75.1, clamav-milter version 0.7= 5c on siaag2ad.compuserve.com X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p9 (Debian) at avenirtech.net X-archive-position: 7096 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Errors-To: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx X-original-sender: trbarry@xxxxxxxxxxx Precedence: normal Reply-To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx X-list: opendtv X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p9 (Debian) at avenirtech.net X-Virus-Status: Clean ---------------------------------------------------------------------- You can UNSUBSCRIBE from the OpenDTV list in two ways: - Using the UNSUBSCRIBE command in your user configuration settings at FreeLists.org - By sending a message to: opendtv-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line.