If so then they all would be seen to do 190million mile 24 hour circles of their own virtually around nothing.. Why consider the Sun nothing? Planets move as the firmament compels them. Leave the firmament out of it and lets stick to gravity of the sort that causes the moon to orbit Earth. So you want to leave reality behind and go where angels fear to tread. One of us won't be surprised by the consequences. Check your figures.. the planets orbit the sun over many months, but the sun does a 24 hour 190 million mile diameter circle.. Looking at that, as the planet mars is doing its annual monthly [ yearly?] walk around space, its sun moves in this almighty big circle. EVERY 24 HOURS.. From where I sit, if mars is attached to the sun by gravity, then this cord is getting an awful big stretch every day. or as I said, if it keeps the same distance it must then do a 24 hour wobble of its own. a 190million mile wobble. I take it 'wobble' means its secondary orbit around Earth, not its primary orbit of the Sun..? In NYC wobble means the path taken from pub to home. Now even if we consider the firmament as a solid separate unit, which circles the earth, and have Mars imbedded in it as an orbiter of the sun keeping its specific distance, Thought we were leaving out the firmament. then we would have to see mars orbiting earth every day, coming closer and further anywhere up to 190 million miles variation over a year, doing this specifically every 24 hours.. I sat down and moved the models paper wise.. So, what's the problem? Are you doubting the Lord can move both Sun and Mars and all the others around the Earth in around 24 hours - as we see repeated every day and night? (Is the firmament in or out now.. I'm so confused) As the Sun and Mars rotate at about the same angular velocity, they maintain approximately the same distance from each other each day. Check out the GC animations on the GW.. oops - never mind. Yes, having the Sun revolve around the Earth causes serious cranial meltdown for Newton and MS and PD, but... you're just discovering this NOW?? Where have you been, o faithphil one? Have you been missing our daily sessions? Or is the consequence of GWW illiteracy being manifested? Be careful - you might become a PD. J We know 2 instances of the Sun's motion being interrupted: Joshua's long day and Fatima.. The planetary motions were not affected in either case, sooooooooooo Doesn't that mean that the Sun does not control the planets, but something else does?? No it doesn't I still believe God allows natural law to govern. But Newton's law of gravity is the MS natural law. Any unnatural motion of the Sun, the source of the planetary orbital glue, would upset the planets too, if gravity were true. (rhyme time) And you cannot compare Fatima with Josh. In the latter case the sun world wide stopped, God said so, it was not a prodigy, (supernatural event, with local environmental appearances ) such as with Fatima. where we know the real sun shone normally and did nothing untoward. Congrats,,, you got that teaser right J Robert B Philip.