RE: Indentation Griping...
- From: <Nick.Adamson@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 09:16:45 -0000
Hi.
I don't think I explained my self properly.
First of all with out a Braille display or some sort of sound scheme
indentation is hard to do and not particularly useful.
If you have some sort of quick way of calculating the indentation,
either through touch with Braille or in an audio format then I find
indentation to help. This is regardless of weather you work in a team or
work to any particular standard. It helps when navigating code. To be
able to match top and end of blocks very quickly because of indentation
means we can be much more productive. The fact it's an expected thing by
sighted people and standards was the reason I had to learn to do
indentation properly but it's not the reason that I do it when I do code
out side of work. I found that once I got the hang of it, started to do
it automatically and fully grasped the benefits it gives you in terms of
code organisation I've never looked back.
I do understand the point that if you don't need to learn it and your
never going to work in a team and you'll never have to work to a
particular coding standard then there's probably no need to force your
self to do it. I also don't like the fact that the syntax of some
languages force a particular style of indentation on you.
How ever, as I said, once you use an indentation style methodically
through your code you'll soon find a benefit.
Cheers.
Nick.
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Octavian
Rasnita
Sent: 09 December 2008 15:07
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Indentation Griping...
Why is the indentation very helpful?
I understand Nick's arguments, but not all the programmers fit those
arguments.
I don't use a braille display not only because it is expensive, but
because
I can't read braille.
And the second argument, is that the indentation is
helpful when you need to follow some standards that require it and when
we
need to work in a team that might have sighted members.
But as I said, I don't work in a team of sighted, so in that case do you
understand that I have a very valid point when I say that the
indentation is
not helpful at all?
For those who use a braille display the indentation is really helpful,
and
for those who work in a team of sighted, the indentation is not helpful,
but
it is a requirement that should be respected with no excuses.
Octavian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Hofstader" <cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 2:41 PM
Subject: RE: Indentation Griping...
> The Braille display requirement is tough as they are pricey and many
of us
> who lost our vision later in life struggle with the writing system and
> work
> very slowly as a result.
>
> I agree, however, that indentation is very helpful.
>
> cdh
>
>
> Happy Hacking,
> cdh
>
> Chris Hofstader
> email: cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Blog: http://www.blindconfidential.blogspot.com
> Skype: BlindChristian
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
> Nick.Adamson@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 4:35 AM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: Indentation Griping...
>
> Hi.
>
> I find that indentation actually helps.
> I am mostly a c++ developer but our companies coding standards (and
> nearly every other coding standard I've ever looked at) for c++
mandates
> an indentation style.
>
> With a Braille display and an editor that automatically does
indentation
> as you type it's not unfriendly but actually makes code much easier to
> navigate.
>
> I used to program with out a Braille display and could never
understand
> why any one would ever spend the huge amount of cache on one. That was
> until I worked at Dolphin and was convinced to try one by one of the
> other developers there. I now find it much harder to code with out
one.
> I'm not even a particular fan of Braille, The only time I use it is
when
> I'm giving a presentation and coding.
>
> The other reason that indentation is a good thing to learn to do
> automatically is that as I said before most coding standards require
it
> and from a visual point of view for my sited peers it's the normal way
> to do things.
>
> Just my 2 pennies worth
> Cheers.
> Nick.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Chris
> Hofstader
> Sent: 08 December 2008 12:38
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Indentation Griping...
>
> Way back when I was a college student, sort of the Paleolithic era,
many
> languages, including Fortran, had rather precise indentation rules
(even
> a
> variety of different CPU assembly languages) and many of these
languages
> were very important in the job market. The most prolific (including
> Fortran) was COBOL which everyone hated but $75 p/h in 1979 made one
> hate it
> a lot less. I programmed in a language called Neat/3 which was sort
of
> an
> assembly language with COBOL like extensions ($50 p/h) and we covered
a
> bunch of other languages with really peculiar indentation rules in
> various
> classes at university.
>
> The worst thing I found back then about indentation rules (one could
set
> tab
> stops which made things a lot easier) was that a label that one might
> want
> to jump to was constricted to a small number of alpha-numeric
characters
> and
> usually a colon which made making code readable pretty difficult,
> especially
> as none of were too fond of comments back then because when using
punch
> cards adding another to the stack increases probability of shuffling.
>
> I know COBOL has removed the requirement for indentation specifics in
> more
> recent versions but I haven't looked at Fortran in about a million
> years. I
> can't think of an assembly language I've programmed in since the late
> seventies that had indentation rules either.
>
> Your Virtual Grandpa,
> cdh
>
>
>
>
> Happy Hacking,
> cdh
>
> Chris Hofstader
> email: cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Blog: http://www.blindconfidential.blogspot.com
> Skype: BlindChristian
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 6:21 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: Python indentation?
>
> Other languages don't have this??? Have you used Fortran?
>
> And by the way you might think fortran is an old language. You would
be
> wrong. Fortran is still a power house in Parallel programming they
use
> it
> to update satellite operating systems and man if you think python is
> picky
> just code in fortran a while you have to have comments in one column
and
> execution statements in another and variable definitions in yet
another.
>
> There are other languages as well.
>
> Ken
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Octavian
> Rasnita
> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 3:27 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Python indentation?
>
> Well, I also think that the indentation is not exactly blind -
friendly,
> but
>
> the others don't agree.
>
> I didn't say that this should be the reason for not using python
because
> it
> is impossible to solve it, but just that it is something unfriendly
that
>
> other languages don't have.
>
> And I have also told about other things that I personally don't like,
> for
> example that python doesn't use braces, but this isn't something
> unfriendly,
>
> because there are programmers that like exactly this. It is just
> something I
>
> don't like.
>
> Octavian
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Hofstader" <cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 9:38 PM
> Subject: Python indentation?
>
>
>>I haven't used Python yet but I expect that I will. I understand that
> its
>> indentation is significant to the meaning of the code on any given
> line
>> but
>> don't decent text editors keep one's indentation properly aligned?
> Adding
>> audio to describe the indentation of any given line is simple and, of
>> course, we all can use Jamal's editor to use braces while we type and
> make
>> them go away to compile properly.
>>
>> I don't know why people choose Python over any other language as I
> have
>> spent nearly zero time exploring it but, while indentation rules
> aren't
>> exactly blind friendly, I can't see it as a showstopper.
>>
>>
>> cdh
>>
>>
>> Happy Hacking,
>> cdh
>>
>> Chris Hofstader
>> email: cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Blog: http://www.blindconfidential.blogspot.com
>> Skype: BlindChristian
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Octavian
>> Rasnita
>> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 12:15 PM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: Creating an Operating System with speech included
>>
>> A whole month?!
>> It is much too much. One day would be enough, but I don't think I
will
>
>> start
>>
>> to like python's indentation in a single day, and probably not even
> after
>> a
>> month.
>>
>> Oh, or if you will say that you don't like it but you just get used
to
> use
>> it, then it is not enough.
>>
>> For the moment I can choose the language I need to use and I can
> choose
>> only
>>
>> what I personally like, no matter what others say.
>>
>> If I will see that I could be a part of a team that use python and I
> could
>> earn much enough to make the necessary effort of getting used to use
> it,
>> then I will probably start using it, but even in that case I don't
> think I
>> will say that python indentation is friendly for the blind.
>> How friendly could it be if it requires a month to get used to use
it?
>>
>> Octavian
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 6:02 PM
>> Subject: RE: Creating an Operating System with speech included
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I took 1 month to get so used to the indentation I don't even think
> of it
>>> and I did not start with Python as I have previously said so your
> just
>>> arguing to argue here.
>>>
>>> Ken
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Octavian
>>> Rasnita
>>> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 3:38 AM
>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: Re: Creating an Operating System with speech included
>>
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