Re: Indentation Griping...

  • From: "Nick Stockton" <nstockton@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 23:44:10 -0500

*nod* it's good to have a form of input on the main unit like the Braille plus does. I am so glad that APH has their own version of the icon (The Braille plus) which is exclusive to them. Being a home-scholar, all my Braille books and other materials came from the instructional resource center at our local school for the blind and about all they could get were transcribed books and anything from the APH catalog that was exclusive to APH. Sadly the only notetaker at the time that was exclusive to APH was the Braille-n-speak scholar. Now if only the Braille plus had come out before 2007 I could have tried one but now I can't *cry*.


Nick Stockton
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 7:40 PM
Subject: RE: Indentation Griping...




I will say I have a bias towards the Braille plus and that's not because I
work for APH. I like the ability to type with the Braille keys and it's not that much bigger than the Icon to matter. I carry mine everywhere. Now if I had the choice of the Icon over everything else out there and the Braille plus did not exist then I would pick it as long as I got the docking station
with it.

Ken


-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Nick Stockton
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 6:34 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Indentation Griping...

Cool!
I knew how to do it in the console but i didn't know if it could be done for

the icon's GUI.

Nick Stockton
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 6:21 PM
Subject: RE: Indentation Griping...




Well let me just tell you this much.  It is a linux based machine and the
whole user interface is in Python.  With your knowledge of Python you
could
make that happen in less than a week if it didn't already exist on the
device.

Ken

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Nick Stockton
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 10:42 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Indentation Griping...

Hey Ken, I was just wondering if you might know if the Braille plus
supports

other keyboard layouts besides QWERTY for the docking station or external
keyboard? I'm a Dvorak user so if I ever got one it would have to support
the Dvorak keyboard layout.

Nick Stockton
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 7:35 PM
Subject: RE: Indentation Griping...




Sorry we have a beta in process so only the beta testers get that info.
It
should be out Jan 7 though and its one step on the way to newer and
cooler
stuff.

Ken

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of tribble
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 1:02 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Indentation Griping...

interesting. What apps are you working on at APH? or can't you say?
Just curious.
Happy hacking.
--le

----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 3:13 PM
Subject: RE: Indentation Griping...



In Teddy's defense I was a self employed programmer before I took the job
at
APH.  I didn't feel like learning python fully because  I had heard on
this
list that the spacing was bad news.  I had no one to worry about I could
code in anything I liked and I picked c and c++ for almost everything not
counting the few things I wrote in VB and c#.

As soon as I got the job with APH though I have to indent if I use c++ or
python so it really don't matter one gives me errors the other gets me
complaints from other coders and believe me I would rather the errors.

To top it all off I am thinking of using python in my commercial game
server
and replacing my own language because that way I don't have to write the
tutorials on my own language I can just do like  we do at work and point
developers at www.python.org.  All I will have to do is give them the
data
set and tell them to go at it.  I thought of using a dll plug in type
thing
where they could use any language in Linux but boost has python and it's
so
much more easy to embed.  So my new found fondness for the language has
even
forced me to make changes in my own personal business.

Ken

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Nick.Adamson@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 4:35 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: Indentation Griping...

Hi.

I find that indentation actually helps.
I am mostly a c++ developer but our companies coding standards (and
nearly every other coding standard I've ever looked at) for c++ mandates
an indentation style.

With a Braille display and an editor that automatically does indentation
as you type it's not unfriendly but actually makes code much easier to
navigate.

I used to program with out a Braille display and could never understand
why any one would ever spend the huge amount of cache on one. That was
until I worked at Dolphin and was convinced to try one by one of the
other developers there. I now find it much harder to code with out one.
I'm not even a particular fan of Braille, The only time I use it is when
I'm giving a presentation and coding.

The other reason that indentation is a good thing to learn to do
automatically is that as I said before most coding standards require it
and from a visual point of view for my sited peers it's the normal way
to do things.

Just my 2 pennies worth
Cheers.
Nick.






-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Chris
Hofstader
Sent: 08 December 2008 12:38
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Indentation Griping...

Way back when I was a college student, sort of the Paleolithic era, many
languages, including Fortran, had rather precise indentation rules (even
a
variety of different CPU assembly languages) and many of these languages
were very important in the job market.  The most prolific (including
Fortran) was COBOL which everyone hated but $75 p/h in 1979 made one
hate it
a lot less.  I programmed in a language called Neat/3 which was sort of
an
assembly language with COBOL like extensions ($50 p/h) and we covered a
bunch of other languages with really peculiar indentation rules in
various
classes at university.

The worst thing I found back then about indentation rules (one could set
tab
stops which made things a lot easier) was that a label that one might
want
to jump to was constricted to a small number of alpha-numeric characters
and
usually a colon which made making code readable pretty difficult,
especially
as none of were too fond of comments back then because when using punch
cards adding another to the stack increases probability of shuffling.

I know COBOL has removed the requirement for indentation specifics in
more
recent versions but I haven't looked at Fortran in about a million
years.  I
can't think of an assembly language I've programmed in since the late
seventies that had indentation rules either.

Your Virtual Grandpa,
cdh




Happy Hacking,
cdh

Chris Hofstader
email: cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Blog: http://www.blindconfidential.blogspot.com
Skype: BlindChristian


-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 6:21 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: Python indentation?

Other languages don't have this???  Have you used Fortran?

And by the way you might think fortran is an old language.  You would be
wrong.  Fortran is still a power house in Parallel programming they use
it
to update satellite operating systems and man if you think python is
picky
just code in fortran a while you have to have comments in one column and
execution statements in another and variable definitions in yet another.

There are other languages as well.

Ken

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Octavian
Rasnita
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 3:27 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Python indentation?

Well, I also think that the indentation is not exactly blind - friendly,
but

the others don't agree.

I didn't say that this should be the reason for not using python because
it
is impossible to solve it, but just that it is something unfriendly that

other languages don't have.

And I have also told about other things that I personally don't like,
for
example that python doesn't use braces, but this isn't something
unfriendly,

because there are programmers that like exactly this. It is just
something I

don't like.

Octavian

----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Hofstader" <cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 9:38 PM
Subject: Python indentation?


I haven't used Python yet but I expect that I will.  I understand that
its
indentation is significant to the meaning of the code on any given
line
but
don't decent text editors keep one's indentation properly aligned?
Adding
audio to describe the indentation of any given line is simple and, of
course, we all can use Jamal's editor to use braces while we type and
make
them go away to compile properly.

I don't know why people choose Python over any other language as I
have
spent nearly zero time exploring it but, while indentation rules
aren't
exactly blind friendly, I can't see it as a showstopper.


cdh


Happy Hacking,
cdh

Chris Hofstader
email: cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Blog: http://www.blindconfidential.blogspot.com
Skype: BlindChristian


-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Octavian
Rasnita
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 12:15 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Creating an Operating System with speech included

A whole month?!
It is much too much. One day would be enough, but I don't think I will

start

to like python's indentation in a single day, and probably not even
after
a
month.

Oh, or if you will say that you don't like it but you just get used to
use
it, then it is not enough.

For the moment I can choose the language I need to use and I can
choose
only

what I personally like, no matter what others say.

If I will see that I could be a part of a team that use python and I
could
earn much enough to make the necessary effort of getting used to use
it,
then I will probably start using it, but even in that case I don't
think I
will say that python indentation is friendly for the blind.
How friendly could it be if it requires a month to get used to use it?

Octavian

----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 6:02 PM
Subject: RE: Creating an Operating System with speech included




I took 1 month to get so used to the indentation I don't even think
of it
and I did not start with Python as I have previously said so your
just
arguing to argue here.

Ken

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Octavian
Rasnita
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 3:38 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Creating an Operating System with speech included

__________
View the list's information and change your settings at
//www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind


__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
signature
database 3668 (20081206) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com




__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
signature
database 3668 (20081206) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
signature
database 3668 (20081206) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com


__________
View the list's information and change your settings at
//www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind


__________
View the list's information and change your settings at
//www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind

__________
View the list's information and change your settings at
//www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind


__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
signature
database 3668 (20081206) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com




__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
signature
database 3668 (20081206) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com


__________
View the list's information and change your settings at
//www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind


This email and any files attached are intended for the addressee and may
contain information of a confidential nature. If you are not the intended
recipient, be aware that this email was sent to you in error and you
should
not disclose, distribute, print, copy or make other use of this email or
its
attachments. Such actions, in fact, may be unlawful. In compliance with
the
various Regulations and Acts, General Dynamics United Kingdom Limited
reserves the right to monitor (and examine for viruses) all emails and
email
attachments, both inbound and outbound. Email communications and their
attachments may not be secure or error- or virus-free and the company
does
not accept liability or responsibility for such matters or the
consequences
thereof. General Dynamics United Kingdom Limited, Registered Office: 100
New Bridge Street, London EC4V 6JA. Registered in England and Wales No:
1911653.
__________
View the list's information and change your settings at
//www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind

__________
View the list's information and change your settings at
//www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind

__________
View the list's information and change your settings at
//www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind

__________
View the list's information and change your settings at
//www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind


__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
signature database 3682 (20081210) __________

The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

http://www.eset.com




__________
View the list's information and change your settings at
//www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind

__________
View the list's information and change your settings at
//www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind


__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
signature database 3683 (20081211) __________

The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

http://www.eset.com




__________
View the list's information and change your settings at
//www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind

__________
View the list's information and change your settings at
//www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind


__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 3685 (20081212) __________

The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

http://www.eset.com




__________
View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind

Other related posts: