Re: Indentation Griping...
- From: "Bob J." <rjustice004@xxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 11:57:18 -0800
Isn't this horse dead yet?
----- Original Message -----
From: "tribble" <lauraeaves@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 8:39 AM
Subject: Re: Indentation Griping...
If you use indentation to structure your program (as in python), how do you
jump from one statement (such as a while loop) to the end of its nested
block?
What does edSharp do in such a situation? For this reason I also prefer
block delimiters for navigating a program. But having been a partially
sighted programmer I know how important indentation is to sighted persons.
I relied on it heavily, and in fact, looking at indentation alone I fixed a
number of logic bugs in which the block delimiters didn't match the
indentation in the program -- the problem was with the wrong placement of
the braces, not an indentation slippup. So you could say it was a DWIM
fix -- "do what I mean" (as shown in the indentation), not what the code
says.
Indentation is there for spatial layout to give a feel for the high level
structure of the code. The more intuitors you can work into the program
source, the liss likely a bug will sneak in.
Happy hacking.
--le
----- Original Message -----
From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 9:07 AM
Subject: Re: Indentation Griping...
If the language used uses braces for delimiting the blocks, they don't
require to use indentation to understand the nesting.
Octavian
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Panes" <jimpanes@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 4:41 PM
Subject: Re: Indentation Griping...
> Hi Teddy,
>
> Speaking for myself.
>
> I use strict indentation rules whenever I write code. It does not matter
> if
> a sighted person ever sees it. The main reason is that it helps me to keep
> track of nesting levels. This is very helpful when debugging code.
>
> Just because something is convenient for sighted people, does not mean we
> should dismiss it as not useful to blind.
>
> One of these days, I'll have the time to look at all these languages you
> guys talk about, but that is not today.
>
> Regards,
> James
>
> jimpanes@xxxxxxxxx
> jimpanes@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> "Everything is easy when you know how."
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 10:07 AM
> Subject: Re: Indentation Griping...
>
>
> Why is the indentation very helpful?
>
> I understand Nick's arguments, but not all the programmers fit those
> arguments.
>
> I don't use a braille display not only because it is expensive, but
> because
> I can't read braille.
>
> And the second argument, is that the indentation is
> helpful when you need to follow some standards that require it and when we
> need to work in a team that might have sighted members.
> But as I said, I don't work in a team of sighted, so in that case do you
> understand that I have a very valid point when I say that the indentation
> is
> not helpful at all?
>
> For those who use a braille display the indentation is really helpful, and
> for those who work in a team of sighted, the indentation is not helpful,
> but
> it is a requirement that should be respected with no excuses.
>
> Octavian
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Hofstader" <cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 2:41 PM
> Subject: RE: Indentation Griping...
>
>
>> The Braille display requirement is tough as they are pricey and many of
>> us
>> who lost our vision later in life struggle with the writing system and
>> work
>> very slowly as a result.
>>
>> I agree, however, that indentation is very helpful.
>>
>> cdh
>>
>>
>> Happy Hacking,
>> cdh
>>
>> Chris Hofstader
>> email: cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Blog: http://www.blindconfidential.blogspot.com
>> Skype: BlindChristian
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
>> Nick.Adamson@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 4:35 AM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: RE: Indentation Griping...
>>
>> Hi.
>>
>> I find that indentation actually helps.
>> I am mostly a c++ developer but our companies coding standards (and
>> nearly every other coding standard I've ever looked at) for c++ mandates
>> an indentation style.
>>
>> With a Braille display and an editor that automatically does indentation
>> as you type it's not unfriendly but actually makes code much easier to
>> navigate.
>>
>> I used to program with out a Braille display and could never understand
>> why any one would ever spend the huge amount of cache on one. That was
>> until I worked at Dolphin and was convinced to try one by one of the
>> other developers there. I now find it much harder to code with out one.
>> I'm not even a particular fan of Braille, The only time I use it is when
>> I'm giving a presentation and coding.
>>
>> The other reason that indentation is a good thing to learn to do
>> automatically is that as I said before most coding standards require it
>> and from a visual point of view for my sited peers it's the normal way
>> to do things.
>>
>> Just my 2 pennies worth
>> Cheers.
>> Nick.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Chris
>> Hofstader
>> Sent: 08 December 2008 12:38
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Indentation Griping...
>>
>> Way back when I was a college student, sort of the Paleolithic era, many
>> languages, including Fortran, had rather precise indentation rules (even
>> a
>> variety of different CPU assembly languages) and many of these languages
>> were very important in the job market. The most prolific (including
>> Fortran) was COBOL which everyone hated but $75 p/h in 1979 made one
>> hate it
>> a lot less. I programmed in a language called Neat/3 which was sort of
>> an
>> assembly language with COBOL like extensions ($50 p/h) and we covered a
>> bunch of other languages with really peculiar indentation rules in
>> various
>> classes at university.
>>
>> The worst thing I found back then about indentation rules (one could set
>> tab
>> stops which made things a lot easier) was that a label that one might
>> want
>> to jump to was constricted to a small number of alpha-numeric characters
>> and
>> usually a colon which made making code readable pretty difficult,
>> especially
>> as none of were too fond of comments back then because when using punch
>> cards adding another to the stack increases probability of shuffling.
>>
>> I know COBOL has removed the requirement for indentation specifics in
>> more
>> recent versions but I haven't looked at Fortran in about a million
>> years. I
>> can't think of an assembly language I've programmed in since the late
>> seventies that had indentation rules either.
>>
>> Your Virtual Grandpa,
>> cdh
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Happy Hacking,
>> cdh
>>
>> Chris Hofstader
>> email: cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Blog: http://www.blindconfidential.blogspot.com
>> Skype: BlindChristian
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
>> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 6:21 PM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: RE: Python indentation?
>>
>> Other languages don't have this??? Have you used Fortran?
>>
>> And by the way you might think fortran is an old language. You would be
>> wrong. Fortran is still a power house in Parallel programming they use
>> it
>> to update satellite operating systems and man if you think python is
>> picky
>> just code in fortran a while you have to have comments in one column and
>> execution statements in another and variable definitions in yet another.
>>
>> There are other languages as well.
>>
>> Ken
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Octavian
>> Rasnita
>> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 3:27 PM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: Python indentation?
>>
>> Well, I also think that the indentation is not exactly blind - friendly,
>> but
>>
>> the others don't agree.
>>
>> I didn't say that this should be the reason for not using python because
>> it
>> is impossible to solve it, but just that it is something unfriendly that
>>
>> other languages don't have.
>>
>> And I have also told about other things that I personally don't like,
>> for
>> example that python doesn't use braces, but this isn't something
>> unfriendly,
>>
>> because there are programmers that like exactly this. It is just
>> something I
>>
>> don't like.
>>
>> Octavian
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Chris Hofstader" <cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 9:38 PM
>> Subject: Python indentation?
>>
>>
>>>I haven't used Python yet but I expect that I will. I understand that
>> its
>>> indentation is significant to the meaning of the code on any given
>> line
>>> but
>>> don't decent text editors keep one's indentation properly aligned?
>> Adding
>>> audio to describe the indentation of any given line is simple and, of
>>> course, we all can use Jamal's editor to use braces while we type and
>> make
>>> them go away to compile properly.
>>>
>>> I don't know why people choose Python over any other language as I
>> have
>>> spent nearly zero time exploring it but, while indentation rules
>> aren't
>>> exactly blind friendly, I can't see it as a showstopper.
>>>
>>>
>>> cdh
>>>
>>>
>>> Happy Hacking,
>>> cdh
>>>
>>> Chris Hofstader
>>> email: cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Blog: http://www.blindconfidential.blogspot.com
>>> Skype: BlindChristian
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Octavian
>>> Rasnita
>>> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 12:15 PM
>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: Re: Creating an Operating System with speech included
>>>
>>> A whole month?!
>>> It is much too much. One day would be enough, but I don't think I will
>>
>>> start
>>>
>>> to like python's indentation in a single day, and probably not even
>> after
>>> a
>>> month.
>>>
>>> Oh, or if you will say that you don't like it but you just get used to
>> use
>>> it, then it is not enough.
>>>
>>> For the moment I can choose the language I need to use and I can
>> choose
>>> only
>>>
>>> what I personally like, no matter what others say.
>>>
>>> If I will see that I could be a part of a team that use python and I
>> could
>>> earn much enough to make the necessary effort of getting used to use
>> it,
>>> then I will probably start using it, but even in that case I don't
>> think I
>>> will say that python indentation is friendly for the blind.
>>> How friendly could it be if it requires a month to get used to use it?
>>>
>>> Octavian
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 6:02 PM
>>> Subject: RE: Creating an Operating System with speech included
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I took 1 month to get so used to the indentation I don't even think
>> of it
>>>> and I did not start with Python as I have previously said so your
>> just
>>>> arguing to argue here.
>>>>
>>>> Ken
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Octavian
>>>> Rasnita
>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 3:38 AM
>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: Re: Creating an Operating System with speech included
>>>
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