Re: Indentation Griping...

Hi Teddy,
For me, when I use braille, I feel the indentation. That gives me another sense I can use to show the logic of the program. I don't know how to explain it, but it helps me understand better when I listen and feel at the same time.

Thanks.

Jim
----- Original Message ----- From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 10:07 AM
Subject: Re: Indentation Griping...


Why is the indentation very helpful?

I understand Nick's arguments, but not all the programmers fit those
arguments.

I don't use a braille display not only because it is expensive, but because
I can't read braille.

And the second argument, is that the indentation is
helpful when you need to follow some standards that require it and when we
need to work in a team that might have sighted members.
But as I said, I don't work in a team of sighted, so in that case do you
understand that I have a very valid point when I say that the indentation is
not helpful at all?

For those who use a braille display the indentation is really helpful, and
for those who work in a team of sighted, the indentation is not helpful, but
it is a requirement that should be respected with no excuses.

Octavian

----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Hofstader" <cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 2:41 PM
Subject: RE: Indentation Griping...


The Braille display requirement is tough as they are pricey and many of us
who lost our vision later in life struggle with the writing system and
work
very slowly as a result.

I agree, however, that indentation is very helpful.

cdh


Happy Hacking,
cdh

Chris Hofstader
email: cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Blog: http://www.blindconfidential.blogspot.com
Skype: BlindChristian


-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Nick.Adamson@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 4:35 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: Indentation Griping...

Hi.

I find that indentation actually helps.
I am mostly a c++ developer but our companies coding standards (and
nearly every other coding standard I've ever looked at) for c++ mandates
an indentation style.

With a Braille display and an editor that automatically does indentation
as you type it's not unfriendly but actually makes code much easier to
navigate.

I used to program with out a Braille display and could never understand
why any one would ever spend the huge amount of cache on one. That was
until I worked at Dolphin and was convinced to try one by one of the
other developers there. I now find it much harder to code with out one.
I'm not even a particular fan of Braille, The only time I use it is when
I'm giving a presentation and coding.

The other reason that indentation is a good thing to learn to do
automatically is that as I said before most coding standards require it
and from a visual point of view for my sited peers it's the normal way
to do things.

Just my 2 pennies worth
Cheers.
Nick.






-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Chris
Hofstader
Sent: 08 December 2008 12:38
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Indentation Griping...

Way back when I was a college student, sort of the Paleolithic era, many
languages, including Fortran, had rather precise indentation rules (even
a
variety of different CPU assembly languages) and many of these languages
were very important in the job market.  The most prolific (including
Fortran) was COBOL which everyone hated but $75 p/h in 1979 made one
hate it
a lot less.  I programmed in a language called Neat/3 which was sort of
an
assembly language with COBOL like extensions ($50 p/h) and we covered a
bunch of other languages with really peculiar indentation rules in
various
classes at university.

The worst thing I found back then about indentation rules (one could set
tab
stops which made things a lot easier) was that a label that one might
want
to jump to was constricted to a small number of alpha-numeric characters
and
usually a colon which made making code readable pretty difficult,
especially
as none of were too fond of comments back then because when using punch
cards adding another to the stack increases probability of shuffling.

I know COBOL has removed the requirement for indentation specifics in
more
recent versions but I haven't looked at Fortran in about a million
years.  I
can't think of an assembly language I've programmed in since the late
seventies that had indentation rules either.

Your Virtual Grandpa,
cdh




Happy Hacking,
cdh

Chris Hofstader
email: cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Blog: http://www.blindconfidential.blogspot.com
Skype: BlindChristian


-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 6:21 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: Python indentation?

Other languages don't have this???  Have you used Fortran?

And by the way you might think fortran is an old language.  You would be
wrong.  Fortran is still a power house in Parallel programming they use
it
to update satellite operating systems and man if you think python is
picky
just code in fortran a while you have to have comments in one column and
execution statements in another and variable definitions in yet another.

There are other languages as well.

Ken

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Octavian
Rasnita
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 3:27 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Python indentation?

Well, I also think that the indentation is not exactly blind - friendly,
but

the others don't agree.

I didn't say that this should be the reason for not using python because
it
is impossible to solve it, but just that it is something unfriendly that

other languages don't have.

And I have also told about other things that I personally don't like,
for
example that python doesn't use braces, but this isn't something
unfriendly,

because there are programmers that like exactly this. It is just
something I

don't like.

Octavian

----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Hofstader" <cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 9:38 PM
Subject: Python indentation?


I haven't used Python yet but I expect that I will.  I understand that
its
indentation is significant to the meaning of the code on any given
line
but
don't decent text editors keep one's indentation properly aligned?
Adding
audio to describe the indentation of any given line is simple and, of
course, we all can use Jamal's editor to use braces while we type and
make
them go away to compile properly.

I don't know why people choose Python over any other language as I
have
spent nearly zero time exploring it but, while indentation rules
aren't
exactly blind friendly, I can't see it as a showstopper.


cdh


Happy Hacking,
cdh

Chris Hofstader
email: cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Blog: http://www.blindconfidential.blogspot.com
Skype: BlindChristian


-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Octavian
Rasnita
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 12:15 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Creating an Operating System with speech included

A whole month?!
It is much too much. One day would be enough, but I don't think I will

start

to like python's indentation in a single day, and probably not even
after
a
month.

Oh, or if you will say that you don't like it but you just get used to
use
it, then it is not enough.

For the moment I can choose the language I need to use and I can
choose
only

what I personally like, no matter what others say.

If I will see that I could be a part of a team that use python and I
could
earn much enough to make the necessary effort of getting used to use
it,
then I will probably start using it, but even in that case I don't
think I
will say that python indentation is friendly for the blind.
How friendly could it be if it requires a month to get used to use it?

Octavian

----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 6:02 PM
Subject: RE: Creating an Operating System with speech included




I took 1 month to get so used to the indentation I don't even think
of it
and I did not start with Python as I have previously said so your
just
arguing to argue here.

Ken

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Octavian
Rasnita
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 3:38 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Creating an Operating System with speech included

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