[lit-ideas] Re: Shadows, Fog, and Money

  • From: "Andy Amago" <aamago@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 11:03:01 -0400

> [Original Message]
> From: Paul Stone <pas@xxxxxxxx>
> To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: 6/13/2005 10:02:39 AM
> Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Shadows, Fog, and Money
>
>
> >A.A. Frustration that such a question as stated above would even enter
> >someone's mind.  Instead, it was a serious question.  This is following
on
> >the heels of learning that people equate atheism with nihilism.  Truly,
it
> >was self delusion on my part to think people are as intelligent as I gave
> >them credit for.
>
> I never thought you gave me any credit at all. Any way, I was not
EQUATING 
> atheism to nihilism. I just don't "understand" what would drive someone
who 
> truly, actually believes that there is NOTHING after you die to live any 
> sort of righteous life -- or indeed life at all. I can see people [who
say 
> they are atheists] doing it everyday, but I don't understand it. What's
the 
> REASON behind it? Like my 'belief in god' questions, this is a serious 
> question and one I fear [know] I won't get an answer to.
>
> >A.A. Religious people are anybody who asks why someone would want to live
> >without a tooth fairy, or some variation thereon, by their side.
>
> My questions comes not because I believe in a tooth-fairy. And... I'm not 
> religious, if you mean that I adhere to any religion. I am only guided by 
> the steadfast refusal to accept that when I die, that will be the end of 
> me. I have no imagination of what it might be, but I simply cannot
imagine 
> not being. If I could, then I might as well get off the ride. What would
be 
> the point of caring about anything. What possible motivation could I have 
> to do anything good or bad or judge things thereby. If you say 'for the 
> good of society' or 'to stabilise the society you live in so that you do 
> good and help others' I say "why?" "what is the point?"
>
> > > done so in the past...)
> >
> >A.A. See above.  My definition of religious person is someone who can't
> >imagine life without a tooth fairy to guide them along, tell them right
> >from wrong, give them a reason to live.  Please, I'm making myself sick
> >thinking about this.  I'm going to bed.
>
> I hope you had a good sleep. I don't hope that because I'm religious and 
> "religion" does not guide my sense of 'right' or 'wrong'. I just have
these 
> faint memories of what a 'good sleep' is and even though it is an 
> impossibility for me, I would wish it on others. That's a combination of
a 
> cultural milieu in which I happened to have lived my life and a healthy 
> dose of selfishness which basically says "please treat me the way I will 
> treat you -- with indifference, within a healthy distance, without
invading 
> your space with smells or excess noise, without physically injuring you 
> without a good reason". That is simple self-preservation. I want to live 
> this life that I have
> to the absolute fullest because it's fun, interesting and enjoyable --
when 
> it's not wretched.
>
> While I'm here, I'm here for me only. I will treat others without harm, 
> without malice and without anger (unless they deserve it). I do that ONLY 
> as a sort of quid pro quo for maintaining the relatively peaceful
existence 
> of my society.  But the ONLY thing that drives me is a firm belief that
"I" 
> am immortal. If I didn't believe that there was a reason to live, then
I'd 
> have to say that life was pointless -- that's a circular argument, but
true 
> nonetheless. As a moral person, I would have to then kill myself OR as an 
> immoral person, I would have to turn into a truly iconoclastic,
sociopathic 
> sybarite without a care in the world.
>
> Whether or not anyone agrees with me is really inconsequential. I must 
> thank you though because now I think I understand why people ARE
religious. 
> To turn this 'argument' back to the subject to which it refers, maybe 
> people NEED to believe in "global warming" because, well, without that to 
> work on, there's nothing to live [i.e. change our lifestyles for the 
> betterment of our children etc.] for.
>


A.A.  I'm hearing a paraphrasing of my own searching about the
meaninglessness of life.  I resolved it by understanding (years after
giving up god), that there is no meaning, no reason to live.  We're here
the way a cat is here or an amoeba or a leaf on a tree.  We're just here,
for a very short time for no reason at all unless we superimpose a reason,
or not.  Either way is the same.  I've looked for rational answers, never
turning to religious or supernatural explanations, but I can now see more
clearly Marlena's question.  I can see that God is not about religion. 
It's about filling that emptiness inside and nothing more.  Gods as John
points out seem a more rational problem, about the nitty gritty of living. 
Why is it that people who believe in gods don't struggle with issues of
meaningless?  Or do they?    

Regarding what happens to us after we die, that sounds like a control
issue.  Controlling what happens to us can be anxiety producing;.  Giving
up control is liberating.  Living in the moment, as Peter says (I read his
post after wriiting this) is what life is about and nothing more.  This
isn't more coherent because I really need to get to work, not for meaning
but because I need to eat.


Andy Amago
  


> paul
>
>
>
>
>
> ##########
> Paul Stone
> pas@xxxxxxxx
> Kingsville, ON, Canada 
>
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