It would not be so bad if the quantity caches had not overwhelmed the quality caches and there was no way to filter out the caches that don't take you to an interesting location or hide a cache in a creative way. Look at that video I posted the link to. How many people consider that geocaching? That is what the numbers hounds are pushing caching too. I say it is time to push back against the nothing matters but numbers crowd and push for what Geocaching started out as. The argument that some people cannot go after more physically challenging caches is a red herring. The issue is if the cache placer throws a cache any place it is possible to place a cache or takes the time to find an interesting and appropriate spot for a cache. So many of these numbers caches are placed on store parking lots without obtaining permission to place the cache on the private property. A fairly new cache placed over by me was in a parking lot by a mural and the cache page indicated they had permission from the owner. That's the distinction between quality and quantity. Jim Bensman "Nature Bats Last" From: geocaching-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:geocaching-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Bernie Ver Hey Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 8:48 AM To: geocaching@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [GeoStL] Re: December 31st, 2010,terracaching will shut down Well put, Michael. Bernie From: geocaching-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:geocaching-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Michael Rogers Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 7:57 AM To: geocaching@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [GeoStL] Re: December 31st, 2010,terracaching will shut down Again, this all boils down to personal choice. You may not like a lot of the caches out there, Jim, but many people do. I know you don't like puzzle caches and apparently don't like working on them (as evidenced by your map page that requests puzzle cache solutions in lieu of donations) but I personally like them, as do many others. Should they be banned just because you don't like them and have been around in this hobby a long time? Let people enjoy caching as they see fit to enjoy it. You may not agree with it, but one person's feeling shouldn't be able to trump the feeling of others... -Michael _____ From: Jim Bensman <junkmailno@xxxxxxxxxxx> To: geocaching@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Mon, November 29, 2010 10:48:20 PM Subject: [GeoStL] Re: December 31st, 2010,terracaching will shut down - Actually, lots of the number hounds cannot be bothered with taking the time to log a cache. So they have developed shuffling. They replace the first container with one with a signed log, they sign the log on the way to the next cache, and then replace the cache with the previous cache. Then they act like they are super cachers. I've been thinking of a cache and calling it the "Yellow Jeep Cache." It would be an ammo box with 30 black decoy film canisters. Then there would be a clear film canister that is the real cache. You will be able to log it every time you put the clear one back in and refind it. I think I would limit it to 5,000 finds a day (and each could be a FTF in its new location). I would only require them to sticker the log once and then put how many times they found it on the log. Jim Bensman "Nature Bats Last"