[dungeoncrawl] Re: Thursday morning summary

Matt, you're absolutely right - your 
character did get majorly sidelined 
this week (and last, for that matter).  
That's the biggest reason why I had the 
rest of the Riders around when they got 
back last night - Gadget should have a 
chance to be a part of a mission to 
take on his own arch-villain.

I thought that was the problem most of 
the night last night, but felt trapped 
by my own plot.  The major point of 
what we're doing with this group is to 
wipe the slate clean of the old 
powerful characters - good and bad.

I hope this helps - I can't remember if 
I mentioned this in a previous email, 
but Mileena's animation of Carpathia 
was 100% a way to get you back in the 
game.  Don't give up on your characters 
though - play them to the hilt.  I'll 
do my best not to let them slide to the 
sidelines -


> I think what bummed me out the most 
from last night was the fact that our
> group " that should be the center 
focus" was on the side lines most of the
> night.  I believe that, the adventure 
should focus on our group of
> characters.  Last night felt like our 
group was watching what was going on.
> The other thing I'm going to work on 
is adjusting what my characters can do.
> Carpathia  is useless in battle with 
everything we've been up against, he is
> 12th level but he might as well be 
7th.  His weapons suck, his spells are
> worthless, this is all my fault, but 
for the little amount of time we play I
> want my characters to count.  He 
doesn't, even Gaget is not worth my 
time.
> (again this is me, picking lousy 
spells).  You all have characters with a
> lot of time and they've gained many 
items and ways of doing things. For me
> with the little time I've had, I have 
not been able to transition myself to
> adapting my characters to each 
situation.  I just venting ... sorry.  
I just
> want my time playing D&D to matter 
more....
> 
> Matt Mckeehan
> DJS Citrix LAN Supervisor
> Admin Office of The PA Courts
> PA Supreme Court
>  (717)795-2063
> (717)514-9446  mobile
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Johnathan Detrick 
[mailto:jdetrick@xxxxxxxxxxx] 
> Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 1:35 
PM
> To: dungeoncrawl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [dungeoncrawl] Re: Thursday 
morning summary
> 
> 
>     I can understand why Elminster 
did what he did, but it points out a
> curious double standard that all DMs 
have in regard to the reactions and
> attitudes of PCs versus NPCs.  Tell 
me if you agree.
>     As players, our characters are 
constantly put up against NPCs that
> are both more powerful and less 
powerful than them, and many of them
> have an attitude.  From the local 
innkeeper that doesn't like their
> looks to the hedge-wizard Elminster, 
the characters are beset by people
> with a grudge on a constant basis.  
We have to deal with them and move
> on, and more likely than not, we have 
to be nice to them.  NPCs, on the
> other hand, can be the biggest jerks 
in the world, and the characters,
> if they act against them, are always 
in the wrong.  Not clear?  Then let
> me ask you this.  If a good character 
from our group had been verbally
> abused by another good character, and 
as punishment, had teleported the
> good character and their companions 
(some of whom were also good and
> near death) into Hell alongside some 
demons and their most hated
> enemies, would the DM consider that 
an evil act?  I think so.  Am I
> saying that Jim was wrong or 
Elminster was out of character?  No.  I
> don't know that any of us really know 
Elminster's character, and the
> reaction he had makes sense.  But 
does anyone see the double standard I
> speak of?  I'm guilty of it as a DM, 
and I believe all the DMs I have
> ever dealt with are as well.
>     On to the matter of power 
levels.  First of all, I feel you do 
Baish
> a disservice to not include him with 
Nadan and Magnus.  He is capable of
> tremendous power (remember the 68 
points of damage he did in one round,
> with only two hits?), and also is 
likely to involve the group in a
> confrontation.  And again, we have 
discussed the disparate power levels
> in groups for years and years.  You 
most certainly do not have to drop a
> mountain on Magnus and Nadan to stop 
them.  As I mentioned, Nadan was
> near death many times, and even 
Magnus got down below 50 hit points at
> one time (which is a big deal for 
him).  I mentioned this when Magnus
> was adventuring with the lower-level 
group, but I'll say it again.  Stop
> trying to stop certain characters.  
Instead, do what you have been
> doing; create good stories with 
strong villains.  If you do that, I'll
> be challenged as a player, and my 
characters are challenged as well.
> Once Nadan has to start healing 
people, he becomes little more than a
> walking band-aid, so his 
effectiveness is reduced.  And Magnus 
doesn't
> want any of his comrades to die, so 
he'll be looking for ways to save
> him.  Every death of a Rider is a 
blow to Magnus.
>     You need to have more faith in 
yourself as a DM.  Do we grumble from
> time to time?  Hell yeah!  It's a 
player's prerogative!  I was sick and
> tired last night, so I was grumpy 
anyway, and I already expressed my
> frustration at not being able to pair 
the Riders against the Black
> Legion in a WWE style brawl.  Not 
frustration at your plot, but
> frustration that things weren't going 
as I hoped.  We all trust you, and
> your plot has heretofore been 
brilliant.  Don't get caught up on the
> individual characters.  Did my 
characters seem to over power last
> night?  Of course they did!  Matt's 
character was killed immediately, as
> was Damon's subtle character.  The 
NPCs were mostly frozen, and my
> characters had to step up.  But what 
dominates the game is never power,
> but always personality.  If the other 
characters have a strength of
> personality, they will shine through 
just as clearly.  I think Baish did
> last night, and if Carpathia hadn't 
been dead, I believe he would have
> as well.  I look forward to seeing 
Gadget next week.
>     Whew!  Does any of this make 
sense?
> 
> jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> 
> > Maybe I can clarify where I was 
coming
> > from, and simultaneously explain 
where
> > my concerns lie.  Nadan's attitude
> > isn't necessarily "bad", but it is
> > definitely a part of his 
personality.
> > In the past two weeks, he's provoked
> > two powerful NPCs who could have 
been
> > dealt with a different way, and in 
both
> > cases, it resulted in problems.
> >
> > With Elminster, he offended the old
> > coot by insisting that he was in the
> > wrong.  Elminster's point of view 
was
> > that the gods from the dead world 
Must
> > be contained at all costs.  He also
> > felt that renegade Riders who had
> > flaunted the god's will already
> > (including Nadan) couldn't be 
anything
> > BUT trouble.  So when Nadan 
unloaded on
> > him, he did the most logical thing:
> > put all of the problems together in 
one
> > place and let fate sort it out.  The
> > fact that Nadan felt he could give
> > Elminster such grief and then expect
> > his aid demonstrates the attitude 
I'm
> > talking about.
> >
> > The second time was with Ariakas.
> > Mentioning that Talos was dead 
didn't
> > do much, but saying that he 
was "easy
> > to beat" went beyond the pale as 
far as
> > Ariakas would be concerned.  The
> > attitude I mention comes from my own
> > surprise that Nadan would 
antagonize a
> > chaotic evil priest with seriously
> > wounded companions alongside him.
> >
> > That confrontation sparked the 
debate
> > between Magnus and Amrikol; Amrikol
> > felt he didn't really need the 
riders,
> > and Magnus's insinuation that he 
didn't
> > have control offended him.  Combat 
was
> > inevitable at that point.
> >
> > Not to say that either character was
> > out of line; my own characters
> > antagonize and offend people all the
> > time.  And some of them even are 
more
> > reasonable than Nadan normally.
> >
> > But my concern comes from the fact 
that
> > you have the two most powerful
> > characters in the group, and they're
> > easily the most likely to start a
> > confrontation.  Much like Ceranno,
> > their values or goals take them much
> > further than their comrades are 
ready
> > for.
> >
> > On another note, I have to admit
> > something about last night.  The 
reason
> > why the big showdown between the 
Riders
> > and the Legion didn't really happen 
is
> > because I saw how discouraged the
> > players were all getting.  I was 
even
> > beginning to hear comments about how
> > unlikely it would be that Elminster
> > would set them up like that, etc.
> >
> > Instead of waiting a few more 
rounds to
> > introduce the old Amrikol, I sped
> > things up.  I was like, "they don't 
get
> > it - I've made this too convoluted.
> > They don't understand that Nadan put
> > them in this mess, or that Elminster
> > takes the fact that they flaunted 
the
> > gods very seriously."
> >
> > I have to admit that I'm a bit
> > bewildered at this point - I have to
> > dump a mountain on the party to 
handle
> > certain characters, and others are 
very
> > vulnerable to such challenges.
> >
> > >     I can understand your 
sentiments
> > on Nadan.  But I'm surprised to
> > > hear you say he has a bad 
attitude.
> > I don't see it as bad.  I see it as
> > > him standing up for what he 
believes
> > in.  I think if he had stayed quiet
> > > and not confronted Ariakas, it 
would
> > have been a cop-out.  Same with
> > > confronting Elminster, Mileena and
> > Magnus.  In my eyes, he's actually
> > > acting his alignment.
> > >     I'm quite enjoying the idea 
that
> > Nadan is very powerful.  He knows
> > > that he has a lot of strength and 
he
> > isn't willing to compromise his
> > > principles.  For so many years 
Magnus
> > has lorded things over the Riders,
> > > in part due to the fact that he 
could
> > wipe the floor with most of them.
> > > Now he has to face someone with as
> > much power as he has, and the
> > > strength to stand up to him.  I 
love
> > the battle of wills between the two
> > > of them and just wish they both
> > weren't my character.  :)
> > >     Don't worry about Nadan dying,
> > especially if it comes about because
> > > he stands up for his beliefs.  He
> > wasn't intentionally antagonizing
> > > Ariakas, but he is a cleric of 
Talos,
> > whose pretty opposed to everything
> > > Lathander stands for.  If Ariakas 
had
> > killed him, so be it.  Not a
> > > problem on my end.
> > >     But Jim, don't let Nadan
> > intimidate you.  I think, that out 
of
> > all
> > > of us, high level characters cause
> > you more concern than any other DM.
> > > Nadan is not invulnerable.  He 
takes
> > damage (a lot of damage usually)
> > > and can be hurt.  He has no real
> > protections, and his hit points, 
while
> > > high, are not astronomical.  When
> > hit, does he not bleed?  :)  Trust 
me,
> > > he was close to death quite a bit
> > last night.
> > >     I do have an apology to make 
to
> > you though.  I had Nadan cast
> > > spontaneous healing last night, as
> > clerics can do.  I thought he could
> > > also swap out Heal and Mass Heal
> > spells as well.  Damon mentioned 
last
> > > night, when we looked up the 
rules to
> > see if he could spontaneously cast
> > > Resurrection, that the rules say 
only
> > spells with Cure in the title.  I
> > > checked it out last night, and 
Damon
> > was right.  So Nadan should not
> > > have been able to cast as many 
Mass
> > Heal spells as he did last night.
> > > That should make you feel somewhat
> > better.  He takes one and that's it.
> > >
> > > jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> > >
> > > > John,
> > > >
> > > > You're right on target!  And 
your
> > > > summary captures where things 
stand
> > > > really well.  OK, so here's the
> > deal:
> > > >
> > > > The group needs to track down 
Celane
> > > > and Dr. Klaw.  Apparently, 
Celane
> > hates
> > > > the Riders because one of them
> > crippled
> > > > her a long time ago, and her
> > resentment
> > > > is so strong that she's trying 
to
> > keep
> > > > godhood out of their hands.  Dr.
> > Klaw
> > > > supposedly wants to "liberate" 
his
> > > > world from "merchant kings", and
> > seems
> > > > to have been in control of the
> > artifact
> > > > from the start (since he's such 
a
> > bad
> > > > guy).
> > > >
> > > > The gods are important because 
the
> > (now
> > > > diabolical) Amrikol wanted to 
use
> > them
> > > > to weaken Dendar enough for him 
to
> > have
> > > > a chance of gaining power (kind 
of
> > like
> > > > when Dr. Doom confronted the
> > Beyonder
> > > > for you comics readers).  He 
seems
> > to
> > > > have lost interest in this 
pursuit
> > as a
> > > > result of talking to Gargauth, a
> > > > banished realms power who traded
> > > > membership in the nine with 
freedom
> > > > from hell (since the nine have 
that
> > > > authority).
> > > >
> > > > I'm really happy with how 
things are
> > > > going, and eager to see this
> > conclude.
> > > > As a DM, I'm facing two 
challenges:
> > > >
> > > > 1.  Nadan - nothing against the
> > > > character or how he's played, 
but
> > he's
> > > > a combination of bad attitude 
and
> > > > tremendous power.  Individuals 
who
> > > > might not go berzerk to kill him
> > > > normally (like Ariakas) find 
that
> > goal
> > > > to be a necessity when he taunts
> > them.
> > > > Ironically, he's becoming the
> > Ceranno
> > > > of the group.:).
> > > >
> > > > This is a problem for me on 
only one
> > > > level - I'm worried that if he 
dies
> > as
> > > > a result of a situation like 
this,
> > it
> > > > might seem like I'm gunning for 
the
> > > > character.  I hope it's 
understood
> > by
> > > > everyone that if Nadan picks a 
fight
> > > > with a big guy and dies, it's 
really
> > > > not my preference!
> > > >
> > > > 2.  Convolution - I'm worried 
that
> > the
> > > > plot is becoming so complex that
> > people
> > > > need a score card.  I really, 
really
> > > > hope to contain that next week.
> > > >
> > > > Also, I see this wrapping up in 
the
> > > > next 2-3 weeks - rapidfire, eh?
> > > >
> > > > >     Ok, first with a summary, 
then
> > > > with thoughts.
> > > > >
> > > > >     The Riders had just come 
from
> > > > Amrikol's castle in the
> > Thunderpeaks,
> > > > > and had harangued Elminster 
into
> > > > transporting them back to 
Sigil.  He
> > > > > agreed, but when they passed
> > through
> > > > the Worldwalk spell he cast, 
they
> > > > > found themselves in Hell, 
facing
> > the
> > > > Black Legion, who had been
> > > > > conversing with some devils.
> > > > >     The two groups briefly 
spoke,
> > > > with Amrikol giving little
> > indication
> > > > > of his plans, when suddenly 
the
> > Black
> > > > Legion attacked.  Already 
wounded
> > > > > from their battle in the 
castle
> > back
> > > > on Faerun, Quasit and Carpathia
> > > > > were quickly killed.  Magnus
> > wanted
> > > > to retreat, but the Riders 
became
> > > > > separated, and he was 
unwilling to
> > > > leave anyone behind.  Mileena 
used
> > > > > her necromantic skills to 
bring
> > > > Carpathia back as an undead, 
and the
> > > > > Riders fought valiantly 
against
> > the
> > > > Black Legion.
> > > > >     The battle was going 
poorly
> > when
> > > > suddenly another Amrikol 
appeared,
> > > > > this one looking more like the
> > > > Amrikol the Riders had faced in
> > their
> > > > > early days.  He declared the 
other
> > > > Amrikol an impostor, and spat 
on the
> > > > > Black Legion (except for 
Talon)
> > who
> > > > he felt had betrayed him by 
working
> > > > > for the doppleganger.  The 
Amrikol
> > > > that had been leading the Black
> > > > > Legion recently tore off his
> > helmet,
> > > > revealing elvish features that 
bore
> > > > > a striking resemblance to
> > Magnus.  He
> > > > began to fight the original
> > > > > Amrikol, and the Riders tried 
to
> > stay
> > > > out of the way.  Eventually they
> > > > > joined the fight against the 
elven
> > > > Amrikol, and Magnus finally 
slew him
> > > > > with a Meteor Swarm.  
However, as
> > > > soon as he died, he was reborn 
as
> > one
> > > > > of the Nine, the arch-fiends 
that
> > > > rule Hell.  Apparently he had 
made a
> > > > > deal with a banished Realms 
power,
> > > > although the specifics of the 
deal
> > > > > are unknown.
> > > > >     Faced with the power of 
this
> > new
> > > > form, the Riders, the original
> > > > > Amrikol and Talon fled 
through a
> > > > portal to Sigil.  Once there 
they
> > went
> > > > > to Ambrosia's Inn, and parted 
ways
> > > > with Amrikol and Talon.  They
> > rested,
> > > > > then resurrected their fallen
> > > > comrades.  Unsure of what to do,
> > they
> > > > > began to research.  Magnus 
sent
> > some
> > > > of the group to research how 
they
> > > > > might gain the power they have
> > been
> > > > chasing, while he went to free a
> > > > > devil in exchange for 
information
> > on
> > > > the new form of the elvish
> > > > > Amrikol.  He also recruited
> > Gadget to
> > > > their team, as it seems that 
they
> > > > > will be dealing with Klaw, 
his old
> > > > enemy.
> > > > >
> > > > >     So where does that leave 
them?
> > > > Let me recap.
> > > > >     Dennis says that Klaw will
> > have
> > > > joined up with Celane and the
> > > > > deities, and is heading to his
> > home
> > > > planet.  Supposedly, Celane 
called
> > > > > the remnants of the deities 
to her
> > > > thanks to an artifact, the claw 
of
> > > > > Dendar the Night Serpent.
> > However,
> > > > only someone with no moral
> > > > > compunctions can use the claw 
of
> > > > Dendar to it's full potential, 
and
> > so
> > > > > Celane will easily lose 
control of
> > > > the deities to Klaw.  Klaw will 
then
> > > > > use the power he possesses 
to "set
> > > > right" things in his world.  The
> > > > > Riders are going to journey 
there
> > to
> > > > make sure Klaw does nothing 
drastic
> > > > > and to rescue Celane.
> > > > >     Meanwhile, there is still 
the
> > > > problem of gaining the power of 
the
> > > > > gods.  According to what the
> > Riders
> > > > have learned, the elvish 
Amrikol is
> > > > > now out of the race.  Their 
devil
> > > > ally told them that one of the 
Nine
> > > > > would have no time or 
interest in
> > > > focusing their attention on one
> > measly
> > > > > little prime world when they 
can
> > > > affect all realities everywhere 
by
> > > > > taking part in the Blood 
War.  He
> > > > should no longer be involved.
> > > > >     However, the original 
Amrikol
> > is
> > > > now interested in the power.  
And
> > > > > the Riders aren't sure how to 
get
> > > > it.  It seems that they need to
> > > > > destroy Dendar the Night 
Serpent
> > to
> > > > gain the power, but Dendar 
killed
> > > > > all the deities of that 
Realm, so
> > > > destroying him is no easy 
task.  The
> > > > > Riders are looking into ways 
to do
> > > > that now.
> > > > >
> > > > >     That's it for me.  I'd be
> > > > thrilled if someone would 
comment
> > on my
> > > > > conclusions and tell me if 
they
> > are
> > > > correct.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

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