[dungeoncrawl] Re: Thursday morning summary
- From: jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx
- To: dungeoncrawl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 14:13:06 US/Eastern
Matt, you're absolutely right - your
character did get majorly sidelined
this week (and last, for that matter).
That's the biggest reason why I had the
rest of the Riders around when they got
back last night - Gadget should have a
chance to be a part of a mission to
take on his own arch-villain.
I thought that was the problem most of
the night last night, but felt trapped
by my own plot. The major point of
what we're doing with this group is to
wipe the slate clean of the old
powerful characters - good and bad.
I hope this helps - I can't remember if
I mentioned this in a previous email,
but Mileena's animation of Carpathia
was 100% a way to get you back in the
game. Don't give up on your characters
though - play them to the hilt. I'll
do my best not to let them slide to the
sidelines -
> I think what bummed me out the most
from last night was the fact that our
> group " that should be the center
focus" was on the side lines most of the
> night. I believe that, the adventure
should focus on our group of
> characters. Last night felt like our
group was watching what was going on.
> The other thing I'm going to work on
is adjusting what my characters can do.
> Carpathia is useless in battle with
everything we've been up against, he is
> 12th level but he might as well be
7th. His weapons suck, his spells are
> worthless, this is all my fault, but
for the little amount of time we play I
> want my characters to count. He
doesn't, even Gaget is not worth my
time.
> (again this is me, picking lousy
spells). You all have characters with a
> lot of time and they've gained many
items and ways of doing things. For me
> with the little time I've had, I have
not been able to transition myself to
> adapting my characters to each
situation. I just venting ... sorry.
I just
> want my time playing D&D to matter
more....
>
> Matt Mckeehan
> DJS Citrix LAN Supervisor
> Admin Office of The PA Courts
> PA Supreme Court
> (717)795-2063
> (717)514-9446 mobile
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Johnathan Detrick
[mailto:jdetrick@xxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 1:35
PM
> To: dungeoncrawl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [dungeoncrawl] Re: Thursday
morning summary
>
>
> I can understand why Elminster
did what he did, but it points out a
> curious double standard that all DMs
have in regard to the reactions and
> attitudes of PCs versus NPCs. Tell
me if you agree.
> As players, our characters are
constantly put up against NPCs that
> are both more powerful and less
powerful than them, and many of them
> have an attitude. From the local
innkeeper that doesn't like their
> looks to the hedge-wizard Elminster,
the characters are beset by people
> with a grudge on a constant basis.
We have to deal with them and move
> on, and more likely than not, we have
to be nice to them. NPCs, on the
> other hand, can be the biggest jerks
in the world, and the characters,
> if they act against them, are always
in the wrong. Not clear? Then let
> me ask you this. If a good character
from our group had been verbally
> abused by another good character, and
as punishment, had teleported the
> good character and their companions
(some of whom were also good and
> near death) into Hell alongside some
demons and their most hated
> enemies, would the DM consider that
an evil act? I think so. Am I
> saying that Jim was wrong or
Elminster was out of character? No. I
> don't know that any of us really know
Elminster's character, and the
> reaction he had makes sense. But
does anyone see the double standard I
> speak of? I'm guilty of it as a DM,
and I believe all the DMs I have
> ever dealt with are as well.
> On to the matter of power
levels. First of all, I feel you do
Baish
> a disservice to not include him with
Nadan and Magnus. He is capable of
> tremendous power (remember the 68
points of damage he did in one round,
> with only two hits?), and also is
likely to involve the group in a
> confrontation. And again, we have
discussed the disparate power levels
> in groups for years and years. You
most certainly do not have to drop a
> mountain on Magnus and Nadan to stop
them. As I mentioned, Nadan was
> near death many times, and even
Magnus got down below 50 hit points at
> one time (which is a big deal for
him). I mentioned this when Magnus
> was adventuring with the lower-level
group, but I'll say it again. Stop
> trying to stop certain characters.
Instead, do what you have been
> doing; create good stories with
strong villains. If you do that, I'll
> be challenged as a player, and my
characters are challenged as well.
> Once Nadan has to start healing
people, he becomes little more than a
> walking band-aid, so his
effectiveness is reduced. And Magnus
doesn't
> want any of his comrades to die, so
he'll be looking for ways to save
> him. Every death of a Rider is a
blow to Magnus.
> You need to have more faith in
yourself as a DM. Do we grumble from
> time to time? Hell yeah! It's a
player's prerogative! I was sick and
> tired last night, so I was grumpy
anyway, and I already expressed my
> frustration at not being able to pair
the Riders against the Black
> Legion in a WWE style brawl. Not
frustration at your plot, but
> frustration that things weren't going
as I hoped. We all trust you, and
> your plot has heretofore been
brilliant. Don't get caught up on the
> individual characters. Did my
characters seem to over power last
> night? Of course they did! Matt's
character was killed immediately, as
> was Damon's subtle character. The
NPCs were mostly frozen, and my
> characters had to step up. But what
dominates the game is never power,
> but always personality. If the other
characters have a strength of
> personality, they will shine through
just as clearly. I think Baish did
> last night, and if Carpathia hadn't
been dead, I believe he would have
> as well. I look forward to seeing
Gadget next week.
> Whew! Does any of this make
sense?
>
> jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
>
> > Maybe I can clarify where I was
coming
> > from, and simultaneously explain
where
> > my concerns lie. Nadan's attitude
> > isn't necessarily "bad", but it is
> > definitely a part of his
personality.
> > In the past two weeks, he's provoked
> > two powerful NPCs who could have
been
> > dealt with a different way, and in
both
> > cases, it resulted in problems.
> >
> > With Elminster, he offended the old
> > coot by insisting that he was in the
> > wrong. Elminster's point of view
was
> > that the gods from the dead world
Must
> > be contained at all costs. He also
> > felt that renegade Riders who had
> > flaunted the god's will already
> > (including Nadan) couldn't be
anything
> > BUT trouble. So when Nadan
unloaded on
> > him, he did the most logical thing:
> > put all of the problems together in
one
> > place and let fate sort it out. The
> > fact that Nadan felt he could give
> > Elminster such grief and then expect
> > his aid demonstrates the attitude
I'm
> > talking about.
> >
> > The second time was with Ariakas.
> > Mentioning that Talos was dead
didn't
> > do much, but saying that he
was "easy
> > to beat" went beyond the pale as
far as
> > Ariakas would be concerned. The
> > attitude I mention comes from my own
> > surprise that Nadan would
antagonize a
> > chaotic evil priest with seriously
> > wounded companions alongside him.
> >
> > That confrontation sparked the
debate
> > between Magnus and Amrikol; Amrikol
> > felt he didn't really need the
riders,
> > and Magnus's insinuation that he
didn't
> > have control offended him. Combat
was
> > inevitable at that point.
> >
> > Not to say that either character was
> > out of line; my own characters
> > antagonize and offend people all the
> > time. And some of them even are
more
> > reasonable than Nadan normally.
> >
> > But my concern comes from the fact
that
> > you have the two most powerful
> > characters in the group, and they're
> > easily the most likely to start a
> > confrontation. Much like Ceranno,
> > their values or goals take them much
> > further than their comrades are
ready
> > for.
> >
> > On another note, I have to admit
> > something about last night. The
reason
> > why the big showdown between the
Riders
> > and the Legion didn't really happen
is
> > because I saw how discouraged the
> > players were all getting. I was
even
> > beginning to hear comments about how
> > unlikely it would be that Elminster
> > would set them up like that, etc.
> >
> > Instead of waiting a few more
rounds to
> > introduce the old Amrikol, I sped
> > things up. I was like, "they don't
get
> > it - I've made this too convoluted.
> > They don't understand that Nadan put
> > them in this mess, or that Elminster
> > takes the fact that they flaunted
the
> > gods very seriously."
> >
> > I have to admit that I'm a bit
> > bewildered at this point - I have to
> > dump a mountain on the party to
handle
> > certain characters, and others are
very
> > vulnerable to such challenges.
> >
> > > I can understand your
sentiments
> > on Nadan. But I'm surprised to
> > > hear you say he has a bad
attitude.
> > I don't see it as bad. I see it as
> > > him standing up for what he
believes
> > in. I think if he had stayed quiet
> > > and not confronted Ariakas, it
would
> > have been a cop-out. Same with
> > > confronting Elminster, Mileena and
> > Magnus. In my eyes, he's actually
> > > acting his alignment.
> > > I'm quite enjoying the idea
that
> > Nadan is very powerful. He knows
> > > that he has a lot of strength and
he
> > isn't willing to compromise his
> > > principles. For so many years
Magnus
> > has lorded things over the Riders,
> > > in part due to the fact that he
could
> > wipe the floor with most of them.
> > > Now he has to face someone with as
> > much power as he has, and the
> > > strength to stand up to him. I
love
> > the battle of wills between the two
> > > of them and just wish they both
> > weren't my character. :)
> > > Don't worry about Nadan dying,
> > especially if it comes about because
> > > he stands up for his beliefs. He
> > wasn't intentionally antagonizing
> > > Ariakas, but he is a cleric of
Talos,
> > whose pretty opposed to everything
> > > Lathander stands for. If Ariakas
had
> > killed him, so be it. Not a
> > > problem on my end.
> > > But Jim, don't let Nadan
> > intimidate you. I think, that out
of
> > all
> > > of us, high level characters cause
> > you more concern than any other DM.
> > > Nadan is not invulnerable. He
takes
> > damage (a lot of damage usually)
> > > and can be hurt. He has no real
> > protections, and his hit points,
while
> > > high, are not astronomical. When
> > hit, does he not bleed? :) Trust
me,
> > > he was close to death quite a bit
> > last night.
> > > I do have an apology to make
to
> > you though. I had Nadan cast
> > > spontaneous healing last night, as
> > clerics can do. I thought he could
> > > also swap out Heal and Mass Heal
> > spells as well. Damon mentioned
last
> > > night, when we looked up the
rules to
> > see if he could spontaneously cast
> > > Resurrection, that the rules say
only
> > spells with Cure in the title. I
> > > checked it out last night, and
Damon
> > was right. So Nadan should not
> > > have been able to cast as many
Mass
> > Heal spells as he did last night.
> > > That should make you feel somewhat
> > better. He takes one and that's it.
> > >
> > > jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> > >
> > > > John,
> > > >
> > > > You're right on target! And
your
> > > > summary captures where things
stand
> > > > really well. OK, so here's the
> > deal:
> > > >
> > > > The group needs to track down
Celane
> > > > and Dr. Klaw. Apparently,
Celane
> > hates
> > > > the Riders because one of them
> > crippled
> > > > her a long time ago, and her
> > resentment
> > > > is so strong that she's trying
to
> > keep
> > > > godhood out of their hands. Dr.
> > Klaw
> > > > supposedly wants to "liberate"
his
> > > > world from "merchant kings", and
> > seems
> > > > to have been in control of the
> > artifact
> > > > from the start (since he's such
a
> > bad
> > > > guy).
> > > >
> > > > The gods are important because
the
> > (now
> > > > diabolical) Amrikol wanted to
use
> > them
> > > > to weaken Dendar enough for him
to
> > have
> > > > a chance of gaining power (kind
of
> > like
> > > > when Dr. Doom confronted the
> > Beyonder
> > > > for you comics readers). He
seems
> > to
> > > > have lost interest in this
pursuit
> > as a
> > > > result of talking to Gargauth, a
> > > > banished realms power who traded
> > > > membership in the nine with
freedom
> > > > from hell (since the nine have
that
> > > > authority).
> > > >
> > > > I'm really happy with how
things are
> > > > going, and eager to see this
> > conclude.
> > > > As a DM, I'm facing two
challenges:
> > > >
> > > > 1. Nadan - nothing against the
> > > > character or how he's played,
but
> > he's
> > > > a combination of bad attitude
and
> > > > tremendous power. Individuals
who
> > > > might not go berzerk to kill him
> > > > normally (like Ariakas) find
that
> > goal
> > > > to be a necessity when he taunts
> > them.
> > > > Ironically, he's becoming the
> > Ceranno
> > > > of the group.:).
> > > >
> > > > This is a problem for me on
only one
> > > > level - I'm worried that if he
dies
> > as
> > > > a result of a situation like
this,
> > it
> > > > might seem like I'm gunning for
the
> > > > character. I hope it's
understood
> > by
> > > > everyone that if Nadan picks a
fight
> > > > with a big guy and dies, it's
really
> > > > not my preference!
> > > >
> > > > 2. Convolution - I'm worried
that
> > the
> > > > plot is becoming so complex that
> > people
> > > > need a score card. I really,
really
> > > > hope to contain that next week.
> > > >
> > > > Also, I see this wrapping up in
the
> > > > next 2-3 weeks - rapidfire, eh?
> > > >
> > > > > Ok, first with a summary,
then
> > > > with thoughts.
> > > > >
> > > > > The Riders had just come
from
> > > > Amrikol's castle in the
> > Thunderpeaks,
> > > > > and had harangued Elminster
into
> > > > transporting them back to
Sigil. He
> > > > > agreed, but when they passed
> > through
> > > > the Worldwalk spell he cast,
they
> > > > > found themselves in Hell,
facing
> > the
> > > > Black Legion, who had been
> > > > > conversing with some devils.
> > > > > The two groups briefly
spoke,
> > > > with Amrikol giving little
> > indication
> > > > > of his plans, when suddenly
the
> > Black
> > > > Legion attacked. Already
wounded
> > > > > from their battle in the
castle
> > back
> > > > on Faerun, Quasit and Carpathia
> > > > > were quickly killed. Magnus
> > wanted
> > > > to retreat, but the Riders
became
> > > > > separated, and he was
unwilling to
> > > > leave anyone behind. Mileena
used
> > > > > her necromantic skills to
bring
> > > > Carpathia back as an undead,
and the
> > > > > Riders fought valiantly
against
> > the
> > > > Black Legion.
> > > > > The battle was going
poorly
> > when
> > > > suddenly another Amrikol
appeared,
> > > > > this one looking more like the
> > > > Amrikol the Riders had faced in
> > their
> > > > > early days. He declared the
other
> > > > Amrikol an impostor, and spat
on the
> > > > > Black Legion (except for
Talon)
> > who
> > > > he felt had betrayed him by
working
> > > > > for the doppleganger. The
Amrikol
> > > > that had been leading the Black
> > > > > Legion recently tore off his
> > helmet,
> > > > revealing elvish features that
bore
> > > > > a striking resemblance to
> > Magnus. He
> > > > began to fight the original
> > > > > Amrikol, and the Riders tried
to
> > stay
> > > > out of the way. Eventually they
> > > > > joined the fight against the
elven
> > > > Amrikol, and Magnus finally
slew him
> > > > > with a Meteor Swarm.
However, as
> > > > soon as he died, he was reborn
as
> > one
> > > > > of the Nine, the arch-fiends
that
> > > > rule Hell. Apparently he had
made a
> > > > > deal with a banished Realms
power,
> > > > although the specifics of the
deal
> > > > > are unknown.
> > > > > Faced with the power of
this
> > new
> > > > form, the Riders, the original
> > > > > Amrikol and Talon fled
through a
> > > > portal to Sigil. Once there
they
> > went
> > > > > to Ambrosia's Inn, and parted
ways
> > > > with Amrikol and Talon. They
> > rested,
> > > > > then resurrected their fallen
> > > > comrades. Unsure of what to do,
> > they
> > > > > began to research. Magnus
sent
> > some
> > > > of the group to research how
they
> > > > > might gain the power they have
> > been
> > > > chasing, while he went to free a
> > > > > devil in exchange for
information
> > on
> > > > the new form of the elvish
> > > > > Amrikol. He also recruited
> > Gadget to
> > > > their team, as it seems that
they
> > > > > will be dealing with Klaw,
his old
> > > > enemy.
> > > > >
> > > > > So where does that leave
them?
> > > > Let me recap.
> > > > > Dennis says that Klaw will
> > have
> > > > joined up with Celane and the
> > > > > deities, and is heading to his
> > home
> > > > planet. Supposedly, Celane
called
> > > > > the remnants of the deities
to her
> > > > thanks to an artifact, the claw
of
> > > > > Dendar the Night Serpent.
> > However,
> > > > only someone with no moral
> > > > > compunctions can use the claw
of
> > > > Dendar to it's full potential,
and
> > so
> > > > > Celane will easily lose
control of
> > > > the deities to Klaw. Klaw will
then
> > > > > use the power he possesses
to "set
> > > > right" things in his world. The
> > > > > Riders are going to journey
there
> > to
> > > > make sure Klaw does nothing
drastic
> > > > > and to rescue Celane.
> > > > > Meanwhile, there is still
the
> > > > problem of gaining the power of
the
> > > > > gods. According to what the
> > Riders
> > > > have learned, the elvish
Amrikol is
> > > > > now out of the race. Their
devil
> > > > ally told them that one of the
Nine
> > > > > would have no time or
interest in
> > > > focusing their attention on one
> > measly
> > > > > little prime world when they
can
> > > > affect all realities everywhere
by
> > > > > taking part in the Blood
War. He
> > > > should no longer be involved.
> > > > > However, the original
Amrikol
> > is
> > > > now interested in the power.
And
> > > > > the Riders aren't sure how to
get
> > > > it. It seems that they need to
> > > > > destroy Dendar the Night
Serpent
> > to
> > > > gain the power, but Dendar
killed
> > > > > all the deities of that
Realm, so
> > > > destroying him is no easy
task. The
> > > > > Riders are looking into ways
to do
> > > > that now.
> > > > >
> > > > > That's it for me. I'd be
> > > > thrilled if someone would
comment
> > on my
> > > > > conclusions and tell me if
they
> > are
> > > > correct.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>
>
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