[dungeoncrawl] Re: Thursday morning summary

Either way would work fine -

> 
>     I think we could make Gadget a 
kick-ass sorcerer.  At 15th level he 
would
> have access to some really neat 
spells.
>     Or, if Jim will allow it, we 
could make Gadget a 15th level rogue, 
and
> consider his gadgets to be magic 
items.  That would limit the amount of 
Gadgets
> he could have, but it would also give 
him a lot of style.
> 
> Matt McKeehan wrote:
> 
> > I agree with you, each of those 
characters have two classes, maybe one 
class
> > will do them  and me good.
> >
> > Matt Mckeehan
> > DJS Citrix LAN Supervisor
> > Admin Office of The PA Courts
> > PA Supreme Court
> >  (717)795-2063
> > (717)514-9446  mobile
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Johnathan Detrick 
[mailto:jdetrick@xxxxxxxxxxx]
> > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 
2:09 PM
> > To: dungeoncrawl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [dungeoncrawl] Re: 
Thursday morning summary
> >
> >     There is something to the fact 
that we were somewhat on the sidelines
> > last
> > night, I'll grant you that.
> >     As for your characters, I'll be 
honest.  One of the biggest mistakes you
> > have made with them is to give them 
too many classes!  Sonya, Carpathia,
> > Gadget...all of them have two or 
three classes.  You need to focus them.
> > They
> > are too scattered, and it weakens 
them.  If it is ok with Jim, I'd be more
> > than
> > willing to help you whittle them 
down into one class each (or two at the
> > most)
> > and try and give them some 
direction.  I know that you feel they 
lack items,
> > but
> > that's not the biggest thing.  
Items help, but they aren't everything.
> > Baish
> > and Quasit are both almost 
itemless, and Magnus and Nadan never 
used any
> > items
> > at all last night.  Wait, Magnus 
did.  Once.  Point being, your 
characters
> > need
> > to be restructured.
> >
> > Matt McKeehan wrote:
> >
> > > I think what bummed me out the 
most from last night was the fact that 
our
> > > group " that should be the center 
focus" was on the side lines most of the
> > > night.  I believe that, the 
adventure should focus on our group of
> > > characters.  Last night felt like 
our group was watching what was going
> > on.
> > > The other thing I'm going to work 
on is adjusting what my characters can
> > do.
> > > Carpathia  is useless in battle 
with everything we've been up against, 
he
> > is
> > > 12th level but he might as well 
be 7th.  His weapons suck, his spells 
are
> > > worthless, this is all my fault, 
but for the little amount of time we 
play
> > I
> > > want my characters to count.  He 
doesn't, even Gaget is not worth my 
time.
> > > (again this is me, picking lousy 
spells).  You all have characters with a
> > > lot of time and they've gained 
many items and ways of doing things. 
For me
> > > with the little time I've had, I 
have not been able to transition myself
> > to
> > > adapting my characters to each 
situation.  I just venting ... sorry.  I
> > just
> > > want my time playing D&D to 
matter more....
> > >
> > > Matt Mckeehan
> > > DJS Citrix LAN Supervisor
> > > Admin Office of The PA Courts
> > > PA Supreme Court
> > >  (717)795-2063
> > > (717)514-9446  mobile
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Johnathan Detrick 
[mailto:jdetrick@xxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 
1:35 PM
> > > To: dungeoncrawl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: [dungeoncrawl] Re: 
Thursday morning summary
> > >
> > >     I can understand why 
Elminster did what he did, but it 
points out a
> > > curious double standard that all 
DMs have in regard to the reactions and
> > > attitudes of PCs versus NPCs.  
Tell me if you agree.
> > >     As players, our characters 
are constantly put up against NPCs that
> > > are both more powerful and less 
powerful than them, and many of them
> > > have an attitude.  From the local 
innkeeper that doesn't like their
> > > looks to the hedge-wizard 
Elminster, the characters are beset by 
people
> > > with a grudge on a constant 
basis.  We have to deal with them and 
move
> > > on, and more likely than not, we 
have to be nice to them.  NPCs, on the
> > > other hand, can be the biggest 
jerks in the world, and the characters,
> > > if they act against them, are 
always in the wrong.  Not clear?  Then 
let
> > > me ask you this.  If a good 
character from our group had been 
verbally
> > > abused by another good character, 
and as punishment, had teleported the
> > > good character and their 
companions (some of whom were also good 
and
> > > near death) into Hell alongside 
some demons and their most hated
> > > enemies, would the DM consider 
that an evil act?  I think so.  Am I
> > > saying that Jim was wrong or 
Elminster was out of character?  No.  I
> > > don't know that any of us really 
know Elminster's character, and the
> > > reaction he had makes sense.  But 
does anyone see the double standard I
> > > speak of?  I'm guilty of it as a 
DM, and I believe all the DMs I have
> > > ever dealt with are as well.
> > >     On to the matter of power 
levels.  First of all, I feel you do 
Baish
> > > a disservice to not include him 
with Nadan and Magnus.  He is capable of
> > > tremendous power (remember the 68 
points of damage he did in one round,
> > > with only two hits?), and also is 
likely to involve the group in a
> > > confrontation.  And again, we 
have discussed the disparate power 
levels
> > > in groups for years and years.  
You most certainly do not have to drop a
> > > mountain on Magnus and Nadan to 
stop them.  As I mentioned, Nadan was
> > > near death many times, and even 
Magnus got down below 50 hit points at
> > > one time (which is a big deal for 
him).  I mentioned this when Magnus
> > > was adventuring with the lower-
level group, but I'll say it again.  
Stop
> > > trying to stop certain 
characters.  Instead, do what you have 
been
> > > doing; create good stories with 
strong villains.  If you do that, I'll
> > > be challenged as a player, and my 
characters are challenged as well.
> > > Once Nadan has to start healing 
people, he becomes little more than a
> > > walking band-aid, so his 
effectiveness is reduced.  And Magnus 
doesn't
> > > want any of his comrades to die, 
so he'll be looking for ways to save
> > > him.  Every death of a Rider is a 
blow to Magnus.
> > >     You need to have more faith 
in yourself as a DM.  Do we grumble from
> > > time to time?  Hell yeah!  It's a 
player's prerogative!  I was sick and
> > > tired last night, so I was grumpy 
anyway, and I already expressed my
> > > frustration at not being able to 
pair the Riders against the Black
> > > Legion in a WWE style brawl.  Not 
frustration at your plot, but
> > > frustration that things weren't 
going as I hoped.  We all trust you, and
> > > your plot has heretofore been 
brilliant.  Don't get caught up on the
> > > individual characters.  Did my 
characters seem to over power last
> > > night?  Of course they did!  
Matt's character was killed 
immediately, as
> > > was Damon's subtle character.  
The NPCs were mostly frozen, and my
> > > characters had to step up.  But 
what dominates the game is never power,
> > > but always personality.  If the 
other characters have a strength of
> > > personality, they will shine 
through just as clearly.  I think Baish 
did
> > > last night, and if Carpathia 
hadn't been dead, I believe he would 
have
> > > as well.  I look forward to 
seeing Gadget next week.
> > >     Whew!  Does any of this make 
sense?
> > >
> > > jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> > >
> > > > Maybe I can clarify where I was 
coming
> > > > from, and simultaneously 
explain where
> > > > my concerns lie.  Nadan's 
attitude
> > > > isn't necessarily "bad", but it 
is
> > > > definitely a part of his 
personality.
> > > > In the past two weeks, he's 
provoked
> > > > two powerful NPCs who could 
have been
> > > > dealt with a different way, and 
in both
> > > > cases, it resulted in problems.
> > > >
> > > > With Elminster, he offended the 
old
> > > > coot by insisting that he was 
in the
> > > > wrong.  Elminster's point of 
view was
> > > > that the gods from the dead 
world Must
> > > > be contained at all costs.  He 
also
> > > > felt that renegade Riders who 
had
> > > > flaunted the god's will already
> > > > (including Nadan) couldn't be 
anything
> > > > BUT trouble.  So when Nadan 
unloaded on
> > > > him, he did the most logical 
thing:
> > > > put all of the problems 
together in one
> > > > place and let fate sort it 
out.  The
> > > > fact that Nadan felt he could 
give
> > > > Elminster such grief and then 
expect
> > > > his aid demonstrates the 
attitude I'm
> > > > talking about.
> > > >
> > > > The second time was with 
Ariakas.
> > > > Mentioning that Talos was dead 
didn't
> > > > do much, but saying that he 
was "easy
> > > > to beat" went beyond the pale 
as far as
> > > > Ariakas would be concerned.  The
> > > > attitude I mention comes from 
my own
> > > > surprise that Nadan would 
antagonize a
> > > > chaotic evil priest with 
seriously
> > > > wounded companions alongside 
him.
> > > >
> > > > That confrontation sparked the 
debate
> > > > between Magnus and Amrikol; 
Amrikol
> > > > felt he didn't really need the 
riders,
> > > > and Magnus's insinuation that 
he didn't
> > > > have control offended him.  
Combat was
> > > > inevitable at that point.
> > > >
> > > > Not to say that either 
character was
> > > > out of line; my own characters
> > > > antagonize and offend people 
all the
> > > > time.  And some of them even 
are more
> > > > reasonable than Nadan normally.
> > > >
> > > > But my concern comes from the 
fact that
> > > > you have the two most powerful
> > > > characters in the group, and 
they're
> > > > easily the most likely to start 
a
> > > > confrontation.  Much like 
Ceranno,
> > > > their values or goals take them 
much
> > > > further than their comrades are 
ready
> > > > for.
> > > >
> > > > On another note, I have to admit
> > > > something about last night.  
The reason
> > > > why the big showdown between 
the Riders
> > > > and the Legion didn't really 
happen is
> > > > because I saw how discouraged 
the
> > > > players were all getting.  I 
was even
> > > > beginning to hear comments 
about how
> > > > unlikely it would be that 
Elminster
> > > > would set them up like that, 
etc.
> > > >
> > > > Instead of waiting a few more 
rounds to
> > > > introduce the old Amrikol, I 
sped
> > > > things up.  I was like, "they 
don't get
> > > > it - I've made this too 
convoluted.
> > > > They don't understand that 
Nadan put
> > > > them in this mess, or that 
Elminster
> > > > takes the fact that they 
flaunted the
> > > > gods very seriously."
> > > >
> > > > I have to admit that I'm a bit
> > > > bewildered at this point - I 
have to
> > > > dump a mountain on the party to 
handle
> > > > certain characters, and others 
are very
> > > > vulnerable to such challenges.
> > > >
> > > > >     I can understand your 
sentiments
> > > > on Nadan.  But I'm surprised to
> > > > > hear you say he has a bad 
attitude.
> > > > I don't see it as bad.  I see 
it as
> > > > > him standing up for what he 
believes
> > > > in.  I think if he had stayed 
quiet
> > > > > and not confronted Ariakas, 
it would
> > > > have been a cop-out.  Same with
> > > > > confronting Elminster, 
Mileena and
> > > > Magnus.  In my eyes, he's 
actually
> > > > > acting his alignment.
> > > > >     I'm quite enjoying the 
idea that
> > > > Nadan is very powerful.  He 
knows
> > > > > that he has a lot of strength 
and he
> > > > isn't willing to compromise his
> > > > > principles.  For so many 
years Magnus
> > > > has lorded things over the 
Riders,
> > > > > in part due to the fact that 
he could
> > > > wipe the floor with most of 
them.
> > > > > Now he has to face someone 
with as
> > > > much power as he has, and the
> > > > > strength to stand up to him.  
I love
> > > > the battle of wills between the 
two
> > > > > of them and just wish they 
both
> > > > weren't my character.  :)
> > > > >     Don't worry about Nadan 
dying,
> > > > especially if it comes about 
because
> > > > > he stands up for his 
beliefs.  He
> > > > wasn't intentionally 
antagonizing
> > > > > Ariakas, but he is a cleric 
of Talos,
> > > > whose pretty opposed to 
everything
> > > > > Lathander stands for.  If 
Ariakas had
> > > > killed him, so be it.  Not a
> > > > > problem on my end.
> > > > >     But Jim, don't let Nadan
> > > > intimidate you.  I think, that 
out of
> > > > all
> > > > > of us, high level characters 
cause
> > > > you more concern than any other 
DM.
> > > > > Nadan is not invulnerable.  
He takes
> > > > damage (a lot of damage usually)
> > > > > and can be hurt.  He has no 
real
> > > > protections, and his hit 
points, while
> > > > > high, are not astronomical.  
When
> > > > hit, does he not bleed?  :)  
Trust me,
> > > > > he was close to death quite a 
bit
> > > > last night.
> > > > >     I do have an apology to 
make to
> > > > you though.  I had Nadan cast
> > > > > spontaneous healing last 
night, as
> > > > clerics can do.  I thought he 
could
> > > > > also swap out Heal and Mass 
Heal
> > > > spells as well.  Damon 
mentioned last
> > > > > night, when we looked up the 
rules to
> > > > see if he could spontaneously 
cast
> > > > > Resurrection, that the rules 
say only
> > > > spells with Cure in the title.  
I
> > > > > checked it out last night, 
and Damon
> > > > was right.  So Nadan should not
> > > > > have been able to cast as 
many Mass
> > > > Heal spells as he did last 
night.
> > > > > That should make you feel 
somewhat
> > > > better.  He takes one and 
that's it.
> > > > >
> > > > > jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > John,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You're right on target!  
And your
> > > > > > summary captures where 
things stand
> > > > > > really well.  OK, so here's 
the
> > > > deal:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The group needs to track 
down Celane
> > > > > > and Dr. Klaw.  Apparently, 
Celane
> > > > hates
> > > > > > the Riders because one of 
them
> > > > crippled
> > > > > > her a long time ago, and her
> > > > resentment
> > > > > > is so strong that she's 
trying to
> > > > keep
> > > > > > godhood out of their 
hands.  Dr.
> > > > Klaw
> > > > > > supposedly wants 
to "liberate" his
> > > > > > world from "merchant 
kings", and
> > > > seems
> > > > > > to have been in control of 
the
> > > > artifact
> > > > > > from the start (since he's 
such a
> > > > bad
> > > > > > guy).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The gods are important 
because the
> > > > (now
> > > > > > diabolical) Amrikol wanted 
to use
> > > > them
> > > > > > to weaken Dendar enough for 
him to
> > > > have
> > > > > > a chance of gaining power 
(kind of
> > > > like
> > > > > > when Dr. Doom confronted the
> > > > Beyonder
> > > > > > for you comics readers).  
He seems
> > > > to
> > > > > > have lost interest in this 
pursuit
> > > > as a
> > > > > > result of talking to 
Gargauth, a
> > > > > > banished realms power who 
traded
> > > > > > membership in the nine with 
freedom
> > > > > > from hell (since the nine 
have that
> > > > > > authority).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm really happy with how 
things are
> > > > > > going, and eager to see this
> > > > conclude.
> > > > > > As a DM, I'm facing two 
challenges:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1.  Nadan - nothing against 
the
> > > > > > character or how he's 
played, but
> > > > he's
> > > > > > a combination of bad 
attitude and
> > > > > > tremendous power.  
Individuals who
> > > > > > might not go berzerk to 
kill him
> > > > > > normally (like Ariakas) 
find that
> > > > goal
> > > > > > to be a necessity when he 
taunts
> > > > them.
> > > > > > Ironically, he's becoming 
the
> > > > Ceranno
> > > > > > of the group.:).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is a problem for me on 
only one
> > > > > > level - I'm worried that if 
he dies
> > > > as
> > > > > > a result of a situation 
like this,
> > > > it
> > > > > > might seem like I'm gunning 
for the
> > > > > > character.  I hope it's 
understood
> > > > by
> > > > > > everyone that if Nadan 
picks a fight
> > > > > > with a big guy and dies, 
it's really
> > > > > > not my preference!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2.  Convolution - I'm 
worried that
> > > > the
> > > > > > plot is becoming so complex 
that
> > > > people
> > > > > > need a score card.  I 
really, really
> > > > > > hope to contain that next 
week.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Also, I see this wrapping 
up in the
> > > > > > next 2-3 weeks - rapidfire, 
eh?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >     Ok, first with a 
summary, then
> > > > > > with thoughts.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >     The Riders had just 
come from
> > > > > > Amrikol's castle in the
> > > > Thunderpeaks,
> > > > > > > and had harangued 
Elminster into
> > > > > > transporting them back to 
Sigil.  He
> > > > > > > agreed, but when they 
passed
> > > > through
> > > > > > the Worldwalk spell he 
cast, they
> > > > > > > found themselves in Hell, 
facing
> > > > the
> > > > > > Black Legion, who had been
> > > > > > > conversing with some 
devils.
> > > > > > >     The two groups 
briefly spoke,
> > > > > > with Amrikol giving little
> > > > indication
> > > > > > > of his plans, when 
suddenly the
> > > > Black
> > > > > > Legion attacked.  Already 
wounded
> > > > > > > from their battle in the 
castle
> > > > back
> > > > > > on Faerun, Quasit and 
Carpathia
> > > > > > > were quickly killed.  
Magnus
> > > > wanted
> > > > > > to retreat, but the Riders 
became
> > > > > > > separated, and he was 
unwilling to
> > > > > > leave anyone behind.  
Mileena used
> > > > > > > her necromantic skills to 
bring
> > > > > > Carpathia back as an 
undead, and the
> > > > > > > Riders fought valiantly 
against
> > > > the
> > > > > > Black Legion.
> > > > > > >     The battle was going 
poorly
> > > > when
> > > > > > suddenly another Amrikol 
appeared,
> > > > > > > this one looking more 
like the
> > > > > > Amrikol the Riders had 
faced in
> > > > their
> > > > > > > early days.  He declared 
the other
> > > > > > Amrikol an impostor, and 
spat on the
> > > > > > > Black Legion (except for 
Talon)
> > > > who
> > > > > > he felt had betrayed him by 
working
> > > > > > > for the doppleganger.  
The Amrikol
> > > > > > that had been leading the 
Black
> > > > > > > Legion recently tore off 
his
> > > > helmet,
> > > > > > revealing elvish features 
that bore
> > > > > > > a striking resemblance to
> > > > Magnus.  He
> > > > > > began to fight the original
> > > > > > > Amrikol, and the Riders 
tried to
> > > > stay
> > > > > > out of the way.  Eventually 
they
> > > > > > > joined the fight against 
the elven
> > > > > > Amrikol, and Magnus finally 
slew him
> > > > > > > with a Meteor Swarm.  
However, as
> > > > > > soon as he died, he was 
reborn as
> > > > one
> > > > > > > of the Nine, the arch-
fiends that
> > > > > > rule Hell.  Apparently he 
had made a
> > > > > > > deal with a banished 
Realms power,
> > > > > > although the specifics of 
the deal
> > > > > > > are unknown.
> > > > > > >     Faced with the power 
of this
> > > > new
> > > > > > form, the Riders, the 
original
> > > > > > > Amrikol and Talon fled 
through a
> > > > > > portal to Sigil.  Once 
there they
> > > > went
> > > > > > > to Ambrosia's Inn, and 
parted ways
> > > > > > with Amrikol and Talon.  
They
> > > > rested,
> > > > > > > then resurrected their 
fallen
> > > > > > comrades.  Unsure of what 
to do,
> > > > they
> > > > > > > began to research.  
Magnus sent
> > > > some
> > > > > > of the group to research 
how they
> > > > > > > might gain the power they 
have
> > > > been
> > > > > > chasing, while he went to 
free a
> > > > > > > devil in exchange for 
information
> > > > on
> > > > > > the new form of the elvish
> > > > > > > Amrikol.  He also 
recruited
> > > > Gadget to
> > > > > > their team, as it seems 
that they
> > > > > > > will be dealing with 
Klaw, his old
> > > > > > enemy.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >     So where does that 
leave them?
> > > > > > Let me recap.
> > > > > > >     Dennis says that Klaw 
will
> > > > have
> > > > > > joined up with Celane and 
the
> > > > > > > deities, and is heading 
to his
> > > > home
> > > > > > planet.  Supposedly, Celane 
called
> > > > > > > the remnants of the 
deities to her
> > > > > > thanks to an artifact, the 
claw of
> > > > > > > Dendar the Night Serpent.
> > > > However,
> > > > > > only someone with no moral
> > > > > > > compunctions can use the 
claw of
> > > > > > Dendar to it's full 
potential, and
> > > > so
> > > > > > > Celane will easily lose 
control of
> > > > > > the deities to Klaw.  Klaw 
will then
> > > > > > > use the power he 
possesses to "set
> > > > > > right" things in his 
world.  The
> > > > > > > Riders are going to 
journey there
> > > > to
> > > > > > make sure Klaw does nothing 
drastic
> > > > > > > and to rescue Celane.
> > > > > > >     Meanwhile, there is 
still the
> > > > > > problem of gaining the 
power of the
> > > > > > > gods.  According to what 
the
> > > > Riders
> > > > > > have learned, the elvish 
Amrikol is
> > > > > > > now out of the race.  
Their devil
> > > > > > ally told them that one of 
the Nine
> > > > > > > would have no time or 
interest in
> > > > > > focusing their attention on 
one
> > > > measly
> > > > > > > little prime world when 
they can
> > > > > > affect all realities 
everywhere by
> > > > > > > taking part in the Blood 
War.  He
> > > > > > should no longer be 
involved.
> > > > > > >     However, the original 
Amrikol
> > > > is
> > > > > > now interested in the 
power.  And
> > > > > > > the Riders aren't sure 
how to get
> > > > > > it.  It seems that they 
need to
> > > > > > > destroy Dendar the Night 
Serpent
> > > > to
> > > > > > gain the power, but Dendar 
killed
> > > > > > > all the deities of that 
Realm, so
> > > > > > destroying him is no easy 
task.  The
> > > > > > > Riders are looking into 
ways to do
> > > > > > that now.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >     That's it for me.  
I'd be
> > > > > > thrilled if someone would 
comment
> > > > on my
> > > > > > > conclusions and tell me 
if they
> > > > are
> > > > > > correct.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> 
> 
>

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