[dungeoncrawl] Re: Thursday morning summary

By the way, I keep forgetting to 
mention:  who said the Riders have seen 
the last of the Black Legion?

> 
>     I can understand why Elminster 
did what he did, but it points out a
> curious double standard that all DMs 
have in regard to the reactions and
> attitudes of PCs versus NPCs.  Tell 
me if you agree.
>     As players, our characters are 
constantly put up against NPCs that
> are both more powerful and less 
powerful than them, and many of them
> have an attitude.  From the local 
innkeeper that doesn't like their
> looks to the hedge-wizard Elminster, 
the characters are beset by people
> with a grudge on a constant basis.  
We have to deal with them and move
> on, and more likely than not, we have 
to be nice to them.  NPCs, on the
> other hand, can be the biggest jerks 
in the world, and the characters,
> if they act against them, are always 
in the wrong.  Not clear?  Then let
> me ask you this.  If a good character 
from our group had been verbally
> abused by another good character, and 
as punishment, had teleported the
> good character and their companions 
(some of whom were also good and
> near death) into Hell alongside some 
demons and their most hated
> enemies, would the DM consider that 
an evil act?  I think so.  Am I
> saying that Jim was wrong or 
Elminster was out of character?  No.  I
> don't know that any of us really know 
Elminster's character, and the
> reaction he had makes sense.  But 
does anyone see the double standard I
> speak of?  I'm guilty of it as a DM, 
and I believe all the DMs I have
> ever dealt with are as well.
>     On to the matter of power 
levels.  First of all, I feel you do 
Baish
> a disservice to not include him with 
Nadan and Magnus.  He is capable of
> tremendous power (remember the 68 
points of damage he did in one round,
> with only two hits?), and also is 
likely to involve the group in a
> confrontation.  And again, we have 
discussed the disparate power levels
> in groups for years and years.  You 
most certainly do not have to drop a
> mountain on Magnus and Nadan to stop 
them.  As I mentioned, Nadan was
> near death many times, and even 
Magnus got down below 50 hit points at
> one time (which is a big deal for 
him).  I mentioned this when Magnus
> was adventuring with the lower-level 
group, but I'll say it again.  Stop
> trying to stop certain characters.  
Instead, do what you have been
> doing; create good stories with 
strong villains.  If you do that, I'll
> be challenged as a player, and my 
characters are challenged as well.
> Once Nadan has to start healing 
people, he becomes little more than a
> walking band-aid, so his 
effectiveness is reduced.  And Magnus 
doesn't
> want any of his comrades to die, so 
he'll be looking for ways to save
> him.  Every death of a Rider is a 
blow to Magnus.
>     You need to have more faith in 
yourself as a DM.  Do we grumble from
> time to time?  Hell yeah!  It's a 
player's prerogative!  I was sick and
> tired last night, so I was grumpy 
anyway, and I already expressed my
> frustration at not being able to pair 
the Riders against the Black
> Legion in a WWE style brawl.  Not 
frustration at your plot, but
> frustration that things weren't going 
as I hoped.  We all trust you, and
> your plot has heretofore been 
brilliant.  Don't get caught up on the
> individual characters.  Did my 
characters seem to over power last
> night?  Of course they did!  Matt's 
character was killed immediately, as
> was Damon's subtle character.  The 
NPCs were mostly frozen, and my
> characters had to step up.  But what 
dominates the game is never power,
> but always personality.  If the other 
characters have a strength of
> personality, they will shine through 
just as clearly.  I think Baish did
> last night, and if Carpathia hadn't 
been dead, I believe he would have
> as well.  I look forward to seeing 
Gadget next week.
>     Whew!  Does any of this make 
sense?
> 
> jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> 
> > Maybe I can clarify where I was 
coming
> > from, and simultaneously explain 
where
> > my concerns lie.  Nadan's attitude
> > isn't necessarily "bad", but it is
> > definitely a part of his 
personality.
> > In the past two weeks, he's provoked
> > two powerful NPCs who could have 
been
> > dealt with a different way, and in 
both
> > cases, it resulted in problems.
> >
> > With Elminster, he offended the old
> > coot by insisting that he was in the
> > wrong.  Elminster's point of view 
was
> > that the gods from the dead world 
Must
> > be contained at all costs.  He also
> > felt that renegade Riders who had
> > flaunted the god's will already
> > (including Nadan) couldn't be 
anything
> > BUT trouble.  So when Nadan 
unloaded on
> > him, he did the most logical thing:
> > put all of the problems together in 
one
> > place and let fate sort it out.  The
> > fact that Nadan felt he could give
> > Elminster such grief and then expect
> > his aid demonstrates the attitude 
I'm
> > talking about.
> >
> > The second time was with Ariakas.
> > Mentioning that Talos was dead 
didn't
> > do much, but saying that he 
was "easy
> > to beat" went beyond the pale as 
far as
> > Ariakas would be concerned.  The
> > attitude I mention comes from my own
> > surprise that Nadan would 
antagonize a
> > chaotic evil priest with seriously
> > wounded companions alongside him.
> >
> > That confrontation sparked the 
debate
> > between Magnus and Amrikol; Amrikol
> > felt he didn't really need the 
riders,
> > and Magnus's insinuation that he 
didn't
> > have control offended him.  Combat 
was
> > inevitable at that point.
> >
> > Not to say that either character was
> > out of line; my own characters
> > antagonize and offend people all the
> > time.  And some of them even are 
more
> > reasonable than Nadan normally.
> >
> > But my concern comes from the fact 
that
> > you have the two most powerful
> > characters in the group, and they're
> > easily the most likely to start a
> > confrontation.  Much like Ceranno,
> > their values or goals take them much
> > further than their comrades are 
ready
> > for.
> >
> > On another note, I have to admit
> > something about last night.  The 
reason
> > why the big showdown between the 
Riders
> > and the Legion didn't really happen 
is
> > because I saw how discouraged the
> > players were all getting.  I was 
even
> > beginning to hear comments about how
> > unlikely it would be that Elminster
> > would set them up like that, etc.
> >
> > Instead of waiting a few more 
rounds to
> > introduce the old Amrikol, I sped
> > things up.  I was like, "they don't 
get
> > it - I've made this too convoluted.
> > They don't understand that Nadan put
> > them in this mess, or that Elminster
> > takes the fact that they flaunted 
the
> > gods very seriously."
> >
> > I have to admit that I'm a bit
> > bewildered at this point - I have to
> > dump a mountain on the party to 
handle
> > certain characters, and others are 
very
> > vulnerable to such challenges.
> >
> > >     I can understand your 
sentiments
> > on Nadan.  But I'm surprised to
> > > hear you say he has a bad 
attitude.
> > I don't see it as bad.  I see it as
> > > him standing up for what he 
believes
> > in.  I think if he had stayed quiet
> > > and not confronted Ariakas, it 
would
> > have been a cop-out.  Same with
> > > confronting Elminster, Mileena and
> > Magnus.  In my eyes, he's actually
> > > acting his alignment.
> > >     I'm quite enjoying the idea 
that
> > Nadan is very powerful.  He knows
> > > that he has a lot of strength and 
he
> > isn't willing to compromise his
> > > principles.  For so many years 
Magnus
> > has lorded things over the Riders,
> > > in part due to the fact that he 
could
> > wipe the floor with most of them.
> > > Now he has to face someone with as
> > much power as he has, and the
> > > strength to stand up to him.  I 
love
> > the battle of wills between the two
> > > of them and just wish they both
> > weren't my character.  :)
> > >     Don't worry about Nadan dying,
> > especially if it comes about because
> > > he stands up for his beliefs.  He
> > wasn't intentionally antagonizing
> > > Ariakas, but he is a cleric of 
Talos,
> > whose pretty opposed to everything
> > > Lathander stands for.  If Ariakas 
had
> > killed him, so be it.  Not a
> > > problem on my end.
> > >     But Jim, don't let Nadan
> > intimidate you.  I think, that out 
of
> > all
> > > of us, high level characters cause
> > you more concern than any other DM.
> > > Nadan is not invulnerable.  He 
takes
> > damage (a lot of damage usually)
> > > and can be hurt.  He has no real
> > protections, and his hit points, 
while
> > > high, are not astronomical.  When
> > hit, does he not bleed?  :)  Trust 
me,
> > > he was close to death quite a bit
> > last night.
> > >     I do have an apology to make 
to
> > you though.  I had Nadan cast
> > > spontaneous healing last night, as
> > clerics can do.  I thought he could
> > > also swap out Heal and Mass Heal
> > spells as well.  Damon mentioned 
last
> > > night, when we looked up the 
rules to
> > see if he could spontaneously cast
> > > Resurrection, that the rules say 
only
> > spells with Cure in the title.  I
> > > checked it out last night, and 
Damon
> > was right.  So Nadan should not
> > > have been able to cast as many 
Mass
> > Heal spells as he did last night.
> > > That should make you feel somewhat
> > better.  He takes one and that's it.
> > >
> > > jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> > >
> > > > John,
> > > >
> > > > You're right on target!  And 
your
> > > > summary captures where things 
stand
> > > > really well.  OK, so here's the
> > deal:
> > > >
> > > > The group needs to track down 
Celane
> > > > and Dr. Klaw.  Apparently, 
Celane
> > hates
> > > > the Riders because one of them
> > crippled
> > > > her a long time ago, and her
> > resentment
> > > > is so strong that she's trying 
to
> > keep
> > > > godhood out of their hands.  Dr.
> > Klaw
> > > > supposedly wants to "liberate" 
his
> > > > world from "merchant kings", and
> > seems
> > > > to have been in control of the
> > artifact
> > > > from the start (since he's such 
a
> > bad
> > > > guy).
> > > >
> > > > The gods are important because 
the
> > (now
> > > > diabolical) Amrikol wanted to 
use
> > them
> > > > to weaken Dendar enough for him 
to
> > have
> > > > a chance of gaining power (kind 
of
> > like
> > > > when Dr. Doom confronted the
> > Beyonder
> > > > for you comics readers).  He 
seems
> > to
> > > > have lost interest in this 
pursuit
> > as a
> > > > result of talking to Gargauth, a
> > > > banished realms power who traded
> > > > membership in the nine with 
freedom
> > > > from hell (since the nine have 
that
> > > > authority).
> > > >
> > > > I'm really happy with how 
things are
> > > > going, and eager to see this
> > conclude.
> > > > As a DM, I'm facing two 
challenges:
> > > >
> > > > 1.  Nadan - nothing against the
> > > > character or how he's played, 
but
> > he's
> > > > a combination of bad attitude 
and
> > > > tremendous power.  Individuals 
who
> > > > might not go berzerk to kill him
> > > > normally (like Ariakas) find 
that
> > goal
> > > > to be a necessity when he taunts
> > them.
> > > > Ironically, he's becoming the
> > Ceranno
> > > > of the group.:).
> > > >
> > > > This is a problem for me on 
only one
> > > > level - I'm worried that if he 
dies
> > as
> > > > a result of a situation like 
this,
> > it
> > > > might seem like I'm gunning for 
the
> > > > character.  I hope it's 
understood
> > by
> > > > everyone that if Nadan picks a 
fight
> > > > with a big guy and dies, it's 
really
> > > > not my preference!
> > > >
> > > > 2.  Convolution - I'm worried 
that
> > the
> > > > plot is becoming so complex that
> > people
> > > > need a score card.  I really, 
really
> > > > hope to contain that next week.
> > > >
> > > > Also, I see this wrapping up in 
the
> > > > next 2-3 weeks - rapidfire, eh?
> > > >
> > > > >     Ok, first with a summary, 
then
> > > > with thoughts.
> > > > >
> > > > >     The Riders had just come 
from
> > > > Amrikol's castle in the
> > Thunderpeaks,
> > > > > and had harangued Elminster 
into
> > > > transporting them back to 
Sigil.  He
> > > > > agreed, but when they passed
> > through
> > > > the Worldwalk spell he cast, 
they
> > > > > found themselves in Hell, 
facing
> > the
> > > > Black Legion, who had been
> > > > > conversing with some devils.
> > > > >     The two groups briefly 
spoke,
> > > > with Amrikol giving little
> > indication
> > > > > of his plans, when suddenly 
the
> > Black
> > > > Legion attacked.  Already 
wounded
> > > > > from their battle in the 
castle
> > back
> > > > on Faerun, Quasit and Carpathia
> > > > > were quickly killed.  Magnus
> > wanted
> > > > to retreat, but the Riders 
became
> > > > > separated, and he was 
unwilling to
> > > > leave anyone behind.  Mileena 
used
> > > > > her necromantic skills to 
bring
> > > > Carpathia back as an undead, 
and the
> > > > > Riders fought valiantly 
against
> > the
> > > > Black Legion.
> > > > >     The battle was going 
poorly
> > when
> > > > suddenly another Amrikol 
appeared,
> > > > > this one looking more like the
> > > > Amrikol the Riders had faced in
> > their
> > > > > early days.  He declared the 
other
> > > > Amrikol an impostor, and spat 
on the
> > > > > Black Legion (except for 
Talon)
> > who
> > > > he felt had betrayed him by 
working
> > > > > for the doppleganger.  The 
Amrikol
> > > > that had been leading the Black
> > > > > Legion recently tore off his
> > helmet,
> > > > revealing elvish features that 
bore
> > > > > a striking resemblance to
> > Magnus.  He
> > > > began to fight the original
> > > > > Amrikol, and the Riders tried 
to
> > stay
> > > > out of the way.  Eventually they
> > > > > joined the fight against the 
elven
> > > > Amrikol, and Magnus finally 
slew him
> > > > > with a Meteor Swarm.  
However, as
> > > > soon as he died, he was reborn 
as
> > one
> > > > > of the Nine, the arch-fiends 
that
> > > > rule Hell.  Apparently he had 
made a
> > > > > deal with a banished Realms 
power,
> > > > although the specifics of the 
deal
> > > > > are unknown.
> > > > >     Faced with the power of 
this
> > new
> > > > form, the Riders, the original
> > > > > Amrikol and Talon fled 
through a
> > > > portal to Sigil.  Once there 
they
> > went
> > > > > to Ambrosia's Inn, and parted 
ways
> > > > with Amrikol and Talon.  They
> > rested,
> > > > > then resurrected their fallen
> > > > comrades.  Unsure of what to do,
> > they
> > > > > began to research.  Magnus 
sent
> > some
> > > > of the group to research how 
they
> > > > > might gain the power they have
> > been
> > > > chasing, while he went to free a
> > > > > devil in exchange for 
information
> > on
> > > > the new form of the elvish
> > > > > Amrikol.  He also recruited
> > Gadget to
> > > > their team, as it seems that 
they
> > > > > will be dealing with Klaw, 
his old
> > > > enemy.
> > > > >
> > > > >     So where does that leave 
them?
> > > > Let me recap.
> > > > >     Dennis says that Klaw will
> > have
> > > > joined up with Celane and the
> > > > > deities, and is heading to his
> > home
> > > > planet.  Supposedly, Celane 
called
> > > > > the remnants of the deities 
to her
> > > > thanks to an artifact, the claw 
of
> > > > > Dendar the Night Serpent.
> > However,
> > > > only someone with no moral
> > > > > compunctions can use the claw 
of
> > > > Dendar to it's full potential, 
and
> > so
> > > > > Celane will easily lose 
control of
> > > > the deities to Klaw.  Klaw will 
then
> > > > > use the power he possesses 
to "set
> > > > right" things in his world.  The
> > > > > Riders are going to journey 
there
> > to
> > > > make sure Klaw does nothing 
drastic
> > > > > and to rescue Celane.
> > > > >     Meanwhile, there is still 
the
> > > > problem of gaining the power of 
the
> > > > > gods.  According to what the
> > Riders
> > > > have learned, the elvish 
Amrikol is
> > > > > now out of the race.  Their 
devil
> > > > ally told them that one of the 
Nine
> > > > > would have no time or 
interest in
> > > > focusing their attention on one
> > measly
> > > > > little prime world when they 
can
> > > > affect all realities everywhere 
by
> > > > > taking part in the Blood 
War.  He
> > > > should no longer be involved.
> > > > >     However, the original 
Amrikol
> > is
> > > > now interested in the power.  
And
> > > > > the Riders aren't sure how to 
get
> > > > it.  It seems that they need to
> > > > > destroy Dendar the Night 
Serpent
> > to
> > > > gain the power, but Dendar 
killed
> > > > > all the deities of that 
Realm, so
> > > > destroying him is no easy 
task.  The
> > > > > Riders are looking into ways 
to do
> > > > that now.
> > > > >
> > > > >     That's it for me.  I'd be
> > > > thrilled if someone would 
comment
> > on my
> > > > > conclusions and tell me if 
they
> > are
> > > > correct.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> 
> 
>

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