[dungeoncrawl] Re: Thursday morning summary

    Well, I thought about that as I typed.  My feeling was that they
wouldn't be back quickly enough to be much of a threat.  If Amrikol put
them back together in time to interfere in this plot, it would seem a
little contrived, considering how he tore through them.  Of course,
maybe it wouldn't be contrived.  I guess it depends on how you pulled it
off.

jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:

> By the way, I keep forgetting to
> mention:  who said the Riders have seen
> the last of the Black Legion?
>
> >
> >     I can understand why Elminster
> did what he did, but it points out a
> > curious double standard that all DMs
> have in regard to the reactions and
> > attitudes of PCs versus NPCs.  Tell
> me if you agree.
> >     As players, our characters are
> constantly put up against NPCs that
> > are both more powerful and less
> powerful than them, and many of them
> > have an attitude.  From the local
> innkeeper that doesn't like their
> > looks to the hedge-wizard Elminster,
> the characters are beset by people
> > with a grudge on a constant basis.
> We have to deal with them and move
> > on, and more likely than not, we have
> to be nice to them.  NPCs, on the
> > other hand, can be the biggest jerks
> in the world, and the characters,
> > if they act against them, are always
> in the wrong.  Not clear?  Then let
> > me ask you this.  If a good character
> from our group had been verbally
> > abused by another good character, and
> as punishment, had teleported the
> > good character and their companions
> (some of whom were also good and
> > near death) into Hell alongside some
> demons and their most hated
> > enemies, would the DM consider that
> an evil act?  I think so.  Am I
> > saying that Jim was wrong or
> Elminster was out of character?  No.  I
> > don't know that any of us really know
> Elminster's character, and the
> > reaction he had makes sense.  But
> does anyone see the double standard I
> > speak of?  I'm guilty of it as a DM,
> and I believe all the DMs I have
> > ever dealt with are as well.
> >     On to the matter of power
> levels.  First of all, I feel you do
> Baish
> > a disservice to not include him with
> Nadan and Magnus.  He is capable of
> > tremendous power (remember the 68
> points of damage he did in one round,
> > with only two hits?), and also is
> likely to involve the group in a
> > confrontation.  And again, we have
> discussed the disparate power levels
> > in groups for years and years.  You
> most certainly do not have to drop a
> > mountain on Magnus and Nadan to stop
> them.  As I mentioned, Nadan was
> > near death many times, and even
> Magnus got down below 50 hit points at
> > one time (which is a big deal for
> him).  I mentioned this when Magnus
> > was adventuring with the lower-level
> group, but I'll say it again.  Stop
> > trying to stop certain characters.
> Instead, do what you have been
> > doing; create good stories with
> strong villains.  If you do that, I'll
> > be challenged as a player, and my
> characters are challenged as well.
> > Once Nadan has to start healing
> people, he becomes little more than a
> > walking band-aid, so his
> effectiveness is reduced.  And Magnus
> doesn't
> > want any of his comrades to die, so
> he'll be looking for ways to save
> > him.  Every death of a Rider is a
> blow to Magnus.
> >     You need to have more faith in
> yourself as a DM.  Do we grumble from
> > time to time?  Hell yeah!  It's a
> player's prerogative!  I was sick and
> > tired last night, so I was grumpy
> anyway, and I already expressed my
> > frustration at not being able to pair
> the Riders against the Black
> > Legion in a WWE style brawl.  Not
> frustration at your plot, but
> > frustration that things weren't going
> as I hoped.  We all trust you, and
> > your plot has heretofore been
> brilliant.  Don't get caught up on the
> > individual characters.  Did my
> characters seem to over power last
> > night?  Of course they did!  Matt's
> character was killed immediately, as
> > was Damon's subtle character.  The
> NPCs were mostly frozen, and my
> > characters had to step up.  But what
> dominates the game is never power,
> > but always personality.  If the other
> characters have a strength of
> > personality, they will shine through
> just as clearly.  I think Baish did
> > last night, and if Carpathia hadn't
> been dead, I believe he would have
> > as well.  I look forward to seeing
> Gadget next week.
> >     Whew!  Does any of this make
> sense?
> >
> > jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> >
> > > Maybe I can clarify where I was
> coming
> > > from, and simultaneously explain
> where
> > > my concerns lie.  Nadan's attitude
> > > isn't necessarily "bad", but it is
> > > definitely a part of his
> personality.
> > > In the past two weeks, he's provoked
> > > two powerful NPCs who could have
> been
> > > dealt with a different way, and in
> both
> > > cases, it resulted in problems.
> > >
> > > With Elminster, he offended the old
> > > coot by insisting that he was in the
> > > wrong.  Elminster's point of view
> was
> > > that the gods from the dead world
> Must
> > > be contained at all costs.  He also
> > > felt that renegade Riders who had
> > > flaunted the god's will already
> > > (including Nadan) couldn't be
> anything
> > > BUT trouble.  So when Nadan
> unloaded on
> > > him, he did the most logical thing:
> > > put all of the problems together in
> one
> > > place and let fate sort it out.  The
> > > fact that Nadan felt he could give
> > > Elminster such grief and then expect
> > > his aid demonstrates the attitude
> I'm
> > > talking about.
> > >
> > > The second time was with Ariakas.
> > > Mentioning that Talos was dead
> didn't
> > > do much, but saying that he
> was "easy
> > > to beat" went beyond the pale as
> far as
> > > Ariakas would be concerned.  The
> > > attitude I mention comes from my own
> > > surprise that Nadan would
> antagonize a
> > > chaotic evil priest with seriously
> > > wounded companions alongside him.
> > >
> > > That confrontation sparked the
> debate
> > > between Magnus and Amrikol; Amrikol
> > > felt he didn't really need the
> riders,
> > > and Magnus's insinuation that he
> didn't
> > > have control offended him.  Combat
> was
> > > inevitable at that point.
> > >
> > > Not to say that either character was
> > > out of line; my own characters
> > > antagonize and offend people all the
> > > time.  And some of them even are
> more
> > > reasonable than Nadan normally.
> > >
> > > But my concern comes from the fact
> that
> > > you have the two most powerful
> > > characters in the group, and they're
> > > easily the most likely to start a
> > > confrontation.  Much like Ceranno,
> > > their values or goals take them much
> > > further than their comrades are
> ready
> > > for.
> > >
> > > On another note, I have to admit
> > > something about last night.  The
> reason
> > > why the big showdown between the
> Riders
> > > and the Legion didn't really happen
> is
> > > because I saw how discouraged the
> > > players were all getting.  I was
> even
> > > beginning to hear comments about how
> > > unlikely it would be that Elminster
> > > would set them up like that, etc.
> > >
> > > Instead of waiting a few more
> rounds to
> > > introduce the old Amrikol, I sped
> > > things up.  I was like, "they don't
> get
> > > it - I've made this too convoluted.
> > > They don't understand that Nadan put
> > > them in this mess, or that Elminster
> > > takes the fact that they flaunted
> the
> > > gods very seriously."
> > >
> > > I have to admit that I'm a bit
> > > bewildered at this point - I have to
> > > dump a mountain on the party to
> handle
> > > certain characters, and others are
> very
> > > vulnerable to such challenges.
> > >
> > > >     I can understand your
> sentiments
> > > on Nadan.  But I'm surprised to
> > > > hear you say he has a bad
> attitude.
> > > I don't see it as bad.  I see it as
> > > > him standing up for what he
> believes
> > > in.  I think if he had stayed quiet
> > > > and not confronted Ariakas, it
> would
> > > have been a cop-out.  Same with
> > > > confronting Elminster, Mileena and
> > > Magnus.  In my eyes, he's actually
> > > > acting his alignment.
> > > >     I'm quite enjoying the idea
> that
> > > Nadan is very powerful.  He knows
> > > > that he has a lot of strength and
> he
> > > isn't willing to compromise his
> > > > principles.  For so many years
> Magnus
> > > has lorded things over the Riders,
> > > > in part due to the fact that he
> could
> > > wipe the floor with most of them.
> > > > Now he has to face someone with as
> > > much power as he has, and the
> > > > strength to stand up to him.  I
> love
> > > the battle of wills between the two
> > > > of them and just wish they both
> > > weren't my character.  :)
> > > >     Don't worry about Nadan dying,
> > > especially if it comes about because
> > > > he stands up for his beliefs.  He
> > > wasn't intentionally antagonizing
> > > > Ariakas, but he is a cleric of
> Talos,
> > > whose pretty opposed to everything
> > > > Lathander stands for.  If Ariakas
> had
> > > killed him, so be it.  Not a
> > > > problem on my end.
> > > >     But Jim, don't let Nadan
> > > intimidate you.  I think, that out
> of
> > > all
> > > > of us, high level characters cause
> > > you more concern than any other DM.
> > > > Nadan is not invulnerable.  He
> takes
> > > damage (a lot of damage usually)
> > > > and can be hurt.  He has no real
> > > protections, and his hit points,
> while
> > > > high, are not astronomical.  When
> > > hit, does he not bleed?  :)  Trust
> me,
> > > > he was close to death quite a bit
> > > last night.
> > > >     I do have an apology to make
> to
> > > you though.  I had Nadan cast
> > > > spontaneous healing last night, as
> > > clerics can do.  I thought he could
> > > > also swap out Heal and Mass Heal
> > > spells as well.  Damon mentioned
> last
> > > > night, when we looked up the
> rules to
> > > see if he could spontaneously cast
> > > > Resurrection, that the rules say
> only
> > > spells with Cure in the title.  I
> > > > checked it out last night, and
> Damon
> > > was right.  So Nadan should not
> > > > have been able to cast as many
> Mass
> > > Heal spells as he did last night.
> > > > That should make you feel somewhat
> > > better.  He takes one and that's it.
> > > >
> > > > jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > John,
> > > > >
> > > > > You're right on target!  And
> your
> > > > > summary captures where things
> stand
> > > > > really well.  OK, so here's the
> > > deal:
> > > > >
> > > > > The group needs to track down
> Celane
> > > > > and Dr. Klaw.  Apparently,
> Celane
> > > hates
> > > > > the Riders because one of them
> > > crippled
> > > > > her a long time ago, and her
> > > resentment
> > > > > is so strong that she's trying
> to
> > > keep
> > > > > godhood out of their hands.  Dr.
> > > Klaw
> > > > > supposedly wants to "liberate"
> his
> > > > > world from "merchant kings", and
> > > seems
> > > > > to have been in control of the
> > > artifact
> > > > > from the start (since he's such
> a
> > > bad
> > > > > guy).
> > > > >
> > > > > The gods are important because
> the
> > > (now
> > > > > diabolical) Amrikol wanted to
> use
> > > them
> > > > > to weaken Dendar enough for him
> to
> > > have
> > > > > a chance of gaining power (kind
> of
> > > like
> > > > > when Dr. Doom confronted the
> > > Beyonder
> > > > > for you comics readers).  He
> seems
> > > to
> > > > > have lost interest in this
> pursuit
> > > as a
> > > > > result of talking to Gargauth, a
> > > > > banished realms power who traded
> > > > > membership in the nine with
> freedom
> > > > > from hell (since the nine have
> that
> > > > > authority).
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm really happy with how
> things are
> > > > > going, and eager to see this
> > > conclude.
> > > > > As a DM, I'm facing two
> challenges:
> > > > >
> > > > > 1.  Nadan - nothing against the
> > > > > character or how he's played,
> but
> > > he's
> > > > > a combination of bad attitude
> and
> > > > > tremendous power.  Individuals
> who
> > > > > might not go berzerk to kill him
> > > > > normally (like Ariakas) find
> that
> > > goal
> > > > > to be a necessity when he taunts
> > > them.
> > > > > Ironically, he's becoming the
> > > Ceranno
> > > > > of the group.:).
> > > > >
> > > > > This is a problem for me on
> only one
> > > > > level - I'm worried that if he
> dies
> > > as
> > > > > a result of a situation like
> this,
> > > it
> > > > > might seem like I'm gunning for
> the
> > > > > character.  I hope it's
> understood
> > > by
> > > > > everyone that if Nadan picks a
> fight
> > > > > with a big guy and dies, it's
> really
> > > > > not my preference!
> > > > >
> > > > > 2.  Convolution - I'm worried
> that
> > > the
> > > > > plot is becoming so complex that
> > > people
> > > > > need a score card.  I really,
> really
> > > > > hope to contain that next week.
> > > > >
> > > > > Also, I see this wrapping up in
> the
> > > > > next 2-3 weeks - rapidfire, eh?
> > > > >
> > > > > >     Ok, first with a summary,
> then
> > > > > with thoughts.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >     The Riders had just come
> from
> > > > > Amrikol's castle in the
> > > Thunderpeaks,
> > > > > > and had harangued Elminster
> into
> > > > > transporting them back to
> Sigil.  He
> > > > > > agreed, but when they passed
> > > through
> > > > > the Worldwalk spell he cast,
> they
> > > > > > found themselves in Hell,
> facing
> > > the
> > > > > Black Legion, who had been
> > > > > > conversing with some devils.
> > > > > >     The two groups briefly
> spoke,
> > > > > with Amrikol giving little
> > > indication
> > > > > > of his plans, when suddenly
> the
> > > Black
> > > > > Legion attacked.  Already
> wounded
> > > > > > from their battle in the
> castle
> > > back
> > > > > on Faerun, Quasit and Carpathia
> > > > > > were quickly killed.  Magnus
> > > wanted
> > > > > to retreat, but the Riders
> became
> > > > > > separated, and he was
> unwilling to
> > > > > leave anyone behind.  Mileena
> used
> > > > > > her necromantic skills to
> bring
> > > > > Carpathia back as an undead,
> and the
> > > > > > Riders fought valiantly
> against
> > > the
> > > > > Black Legion.
> > > > > >     The battle was going
> poorly
> > > when
> > > > > suddenly another Amrikol
> appeared,
> > > > > > this one looking more like the
> > > > > Amrikol the Riders had faced in
> > > their
> > > > > > early days.  He declared the
> other
> > > > > Amrikol an impostor, and spat
> on the
> > > > > > Black Legion (except for
> Talon)
> > > who
> > > > > he felt had betrayed him by
> working
> > > > > > for the doppleganger.  The
> Amrikol
> > > > > that had been leading the Black
> > > > > > Legion recently tore off his
> > > helmet,
> > > > > revealing elvish features that
> bore
> > > > > > a striking resemblance to
> > > Magnus.  He
> > > > > began to fight the original
> > > > > > Amrikol, and the Riders tried
> to
> > > stay
> > > > > out of the way.  Eventually they
> > > > > > joined the fight against the
> elven
> > > > > Amrikol, and Magnus finally
> slew him
> > > > > > with a Meteor Swarm.
> However, as
> > > > > soon as he died, he was reborn
> as
> > > one
> > > > > > of the Nine, the arch-fiends
> that
> > > > > rule Hell.  Apparently he had
> made a
> > > > > > deal with a banished Realms
> power,
> > > > > although the specifics of the
> deal
> > > > > > are unknown.
> > > > > >     Faced with the power of
> this
> > > new
> > > > > form, the Riders, the original
> > > > > > Amrikol and Talon fled
> through a
> > > > > portal to Sigil.  Once there
> they
> > > went
> > > > > > to Ambrosia's Inn, and parted
> ways
> > > > > with Amrikol and Talon.  They
> > > rested,
> > > > > > then resurrected their fallen
> > > > > comrades.  Unsure of what to do,
> > > they
> > > > > > began to research.  Magnus
> sent
> > > some
> > > > > of the group to research how
> they
> > > > > > might gain the power they have
> > > been
> > > > > chasing, while he went to free a
> > > > > > devil in exchange for
> information
> > > on
> > > > > the new form of the elvish
> > > > > > Amrikol.  He also recruited
> > > Gadget to
> > > > > their team, as it seems that
> they
> > > > > > will be dealing with Klaw,
> his old
> > > > > enemy.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >     So where does that leave
> them?
> > > > > Let me recap.
> > > > > >     Dennis says that Klaw will
> > > have
> > > > > joined up with Celane and the
> > > > > > deities, and is heading to his
> > > home
> > > > > planet.  Supposedly, Celane
> called
> > > > > > the remnants of the deities
> to her
> > > > > thanks to an artifact, the claw
> of
> > > > > > Dendar the Night Serpent.
> > > However,
> > > > > only someone with no moral
> > > > > > compunctions can use the claw
> of
> > > > > Dendar to it's full potential,
> and
> > > so
> > > > > > Celane will easily lose
> control of
> > > > > the deities to Klaw.  Klaw will
> then
> > > > > > use the power he possesses
> to "set
> > > > > right" things in his world.  The
> > > > > > Riders are going to journey
> there
> > > to
> > > > > make sure Klaw does nothing
> drastic
> > > > > > and to rescue Celane.
> > > > > >     Meanwhile, there is still
> the
> > > > > problem of gaining the power of
> the
> > > > > > gods.  According to what the
> > > Riders
> > > > > have learned, the elvish
> Amrikol is
> > > > > > now out of the race.  Their
> devil
> > > > > ally told them that one of the
> Nine
> > > > > > would have no time or
> interest in
> > > > > focusing their attention on one
> > > measly
> > > > > > little prime world when they
> can
> > > > > affect all realities everywhere
> by
> > > > > > taking part in the Blood
> War.  He
> > > > > should no longer be involved.
> > > > > >     However, the original
> Amrikol
> > > is
> > > > > now interested in the power.
> And
> > > > > > the Riders aren't sure how to
> get
> > > > > it.  It seems that they need to
> > > > > > destroy Dendar the Night
> Serpent
> > > to
> > > > > gain the power, but Dendar
> killed
> > > > > > all the deities of that
> Realm, so
> > > > > destroying him is no easy
> task.  The
> > > > > > Riders are looking into ways
> to do
> > > > > that now.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >     That's it for me.  I'd be
> > > > > thrilled if someone would
> comment
> > > on my
> > > > > > conclusions and tell me if
> they
> > > are
> > > > > correct.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> >
> >

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