[dungeoncrawl] Re: Thursday morning summary

I'll help you out there, since last 
night was so rapid-fire.  For one 
thing, Talon has all the info they need 
to progress.  For another, it's really 
just Amrikol, Talon, and Iludriss right 
now - at least that you're aware of.  

Ariakas may appear again, and sooner 
than you think, but for now it seems to 
the characters that he's charting his 
own path.

Three possibilities now lie before the 
group:

1.  The Black Legion allies with the 
Riders.
2.  The Riders go it alone, and the 
Black Legion opposes them.
3.  The Black Legion does nothing.  
Hard to believe that for sure, eh?

> 
>     Well, I thought about that as I 
typed.  My feeling was that they
> wouldn't be back quickly enough to be 
much of a threat.  If Amrikol put
> them back together in time to 
interfere in this plot, it would seem a
> little contrived, considering how he 
tore through them.  Of course,
> maybe it wouldn't be contrived.  I 
guess it depends on how you pulled it
> off.
> 
> jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> 
> > By the way, I keep forgetting to
> > mention:  who said the Riders have 
seen
> > the last of the Black Legion?
> >
> > >
> > >     I can understand why Elminster
> > did what he did, but it points out a
> > > curious double standard that all 
DMs
> > have in regard to the reactions and
> > > attitudes of PCs versus NPCs.  
Tell
> > me if you agree.
> > >     As players, our characters are
> > constantly put up against NPCs that
> > > are both more powerful and less
> > powerful than them, and many of them
> > > have an attitude.  From the local
> > innkeeper that doesn't like their
> > > looks to the hedge-wizard 
Elminster,
> > the characters are beset by people
> > > with a grudge on a constant basis.
> > We have to deal with them and move
> > > on, and more likely than not, we 
have
> > to be nice to them.  NPCs, on the
> > > other hand, can be the biggest 
jerks
> > in the world, and the characters,
> > > if they act against them, are 
always
> > in the wrong.  Not clear?  Then let
> > > me ask you this.  If a good 
character
> > from our group had been verbally
> > > abused by another good character, 
and
> > as punishment, had teleported the
> > > good character and their 
companions
> > (some of whom were also good and
> > > near death) into Hell alongside 
some
> > demons and their most hated
> > > enemies, would the DM consider 
that
> > an evil act?  I think so.  Am I
> > > saying that Jim was wrong or
> > Elminster was out of character?  
No.  I
> > > don't know that any of us really 
know
> > Elminster's character, and the
> > > reaction he had makes sense.  But
> > does anyone see the double standard 
I
> > > speak of?  I'm guilty of it as a 
DM,
> > and I believe all the DMs I have
> > > ever dealt with are as well.
> > >     On to the matter of power
> > levels.  First of all, I feel you do
> > Baish
> > > a disservice to not include him 
with
> > Nadan and Magnus.  He is capable of
> > > tremendous power (remember the 68
> > points of damage he did in one 
round,
> > > with only two hits?), and also is
> > likely to involve the group in a
> > > confrontation.  And again, we have
> > discussed the disparate power levels
> > > in groups for years and years.  
You
> > most certainly do not have to drop a
> > > mountain on Magnus and Nadan to 
stop
> > them.  As I mentioned, Nadan was
> > > near death many times, and even
> > Magnus got down below 50 hit points 
at
> > > one time (which is a big deal for
> > him).  I mentioned this when Magnus
> > > was adventuring with the lower-
level
> > group, but I'll say it again.  Stop
> > > trying to stop certain characters.
> > Instead, do what you have been
> > > doing; create good stories with
> > strong villains.  If you do that, 
I'll
> > > be challenged as a player, and my
> > characters are challenged as well.
> > > Once Nadan has to start healing
> > people, he becomes little more than 
a
> > > walking band-aid, so his
> > effectiveness is reduced.  And 
Magnus
> > doesn't
> > > want any of his comrades to die, 
so
> > he'll be looking for ways to save
> > > him.  Every death of a Rider is a
> > blow to Magnus.
> > >     You need to have more faith in
> > yourself as a DM.  Do we grumble 
from
> > > time to time?  Hell yeah!  It's a
> > player's prerogative!  I was sick 
and
> > > tired last night, so I was grumpy
> > anyway, and I already expressed my
> > > frustration at not being able to 
pair
> > the Riders against the Black
> > > Legion in a WWE style brawl.  Not
> > frustration at your plot, but
> > > frustration that things weren't 
going
> > as I hoped.  We all trust you, and
> > > your plot has heretofore been
> > brilliant.  Don't get caught up on 
the
> > > individual characters.  Did my
> > characters seem to over power last
> > > night?  Of course they did!  
Matt's
> > character was killed immediately, as
> > > was Damon's subtle character.  The
> > NPCs were mostly frozen, and my
> > > characters had to step up.  But 
what
> > dominates the game is never power,
> > > but always personality.  If the 
other
> > characters have a strength of
> > > personality, they will shine 
through
> > just as clearly.  I think Baish did
> > > last night, and if Carpathia 
hadn't
> > been dead, I believe he would have
> > > as well.  I look forward to seeing
> > Gadget next week.
> > >     Whew!  Does any of this make
> > sense?
> > >
> > > jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> > >
> > > > Maybe I can clarify where I was
> > coming
> > > > from, and simultaneously explain
> > where
> > > > my concerns lie.  Nadan's 
attitude
> > > > isn't necessarily "bad", but it 
is
> > > > definitely a part of his
> > personality.
> > > > In the past two weeks, he's 
provoked
> > > > two powerful NPCs who could have
> > been
> > > > dealt with a different way, and 
in
> > both
> > > > cases, it resulted in problems.
> > > >
> > > > With Elminster, he offended the 
old
> > > > coot by insisting that he was 
in the
> > > > wrong.  Elminster's point of 
view
> > was
> > > > that the gods from the dead 
world
> > Must
> > > > be contained at all costs.  He 
also
> > > > felt that renegade Riders who 
had
> > > > flaunted the god's will already
> > > > (including Nadan) couldn't be
> > anything
> > > > BUT trouble.  So when Nadan
> > unloaded on
> > > > him, he did the most logical 
thing:
> > > > put all of the problems 
together in
> > one
> > > > place and let fate sort it 
out.  The
> > > > fact that Nadan felt he could 
give
> > > > Elminster such grief and then 
expect
> > > > his aid demonstrates the 
attitude
> > I'm
> > > > talking about.
> > > >
> > > > The second time was with 
Ariakas.
> > > > Mentioning that Talos was dead
> > didn't
> > > > do much, but saying that he
> > was "easy
> > > > to beat" went beyond the pale as
> > far as
> > > > Ariakas would be concerned.  The
> > > > attitude I mention comes from 
my own
> > > > surprise that Nadan would
> > antagonize a
> > > > chaotic evil priest with 
seriously
> > > > wounded companions alongside 
him.
> > > >
> > > > That confrontation sparked the
> > debate
> > > > between Magnus and Amrikol; 
Amrikol
> > > > felt he didn't really need the
> > riders,
> > > > and Magnus's insinuation that he
> > didn't
> > > > have control offended him.  
Combat
> > was
> > > > inevitable at that point.
> > > >
> > > > Not to say that either 
character was
> > > > out of line; my own characters
> > > > antagonize and offend people 
all the
> > > > time.  And some of them even are
> > more
> > > > reasonable than Nadan normally.
> > > >
> > > > But my concern comes from the 
fact
> > that
> > > > you have the two most powerful
> > > > characters in the group, and 
they're
> > > > easily the most likely to start 
a
> > > > confrontation.  Much like 
Ceranno,
> > > > their values or goals take them 
much
> > > > further than their comrades are
> > ready
> > > > for.
> > > >
> > > > On another note, I have to admit
> > > > something about last night.  The
> > reason
> > > > why the big showdown between the
> > Riders
> > > > and the Legion didn't really 
happen
> > is
> > > > because I saw how discouraged 
the
> > > > players were all getting.  I was
> > even
> > > > beginning to hear comments 
about how
> > > > unlikely it would be that 
Elminster
> > > > would set them up like that, 
etc.
> > > >
> > > > Instead of waiting a few more
> > rounds to
> > > > introduce the old Amrikol, I 
sped
> > > > things up.  I was like, "they 
don't
> > get
> > > > it - I've made this too 
convoluted.
> > > > They don't understand that 
Nadan put
> > > > them in this mess, or that 
Elminster
> > > > takes the fact that they 
flaunted
> > the
> > > > gods very seriously."
> > > >
> > > > I have to admit that I'm a bit
> > > > bewildered at this point - I 
have to
> > > > dump a mountain on the party to
> > handle
> > > > certain characters, and others 
are
> > very
> > > > vulnerable to such challenges.
> > > >
> > > > >     I can understand your
> > sentiments
> > > > on Nadan.  But I'm surprised to
> > > > > hear you say he has a bad
> > attitude.
> > > > I don't see it as bad.  I see 
it as
> > > > > him standing up for what he
> > believes
> > > > in.  I think if he had stayed 
quiet
> > > > > and not confronted Ariakas, it
> > would
> > > > have been a cop-out.  Same with
> > > > > confronting Elminster, 
Mileena and
> > > > Magnus.  In my eyes, he's 
actually
> > > > > acting his alignment.
> > > > >     I'm quite enjoying the 
idea
> > that
> > > > Nadan is very powerful.  He 
knows
> > > > > that he has a lot of strength 
and
> > he
> > > > isn't willing to compromise his
> > > > > principles.  For so many years
> > Magnus
> > > > has lorded things over the 
Riders,
> > > > > in part due to the fact that 
he
> > could
> > > > wipe the floor with most of 
them.
> > > > > Now he has to face someone 
with as
> > > > much power as he has, and the
> > > > > strength to stand up to him.  
I
> > love
> > > > the battle of wills between the 
two
> > > > > of them and just wish they 
both
> > > > weren't my character.  :)
> > > > >     Don't worry about Nadan 
dying,
> > > > especially if it comes about 
because
> > > > > he stands up for his 
beliefs.  He
> > > > wasn't intentionally 
antagonizing
> > > > > Ariakas, but he is a cleric of
> > Talos,
> > > > whose pretty opposed to 
everything
> > > > > Lathander stands for.  If 
Ariakas
> > had
> > > > killed him, so be it.  Not a
> > > > > problem on my end.
> > > > >     But Jim, don't let Nadan
> > > > intimidate you.  I think, that 
out
> > of
> > > > all
> > > > > of us, high level characters 
cause
> > > > you more concern than any other 
DM.
> > > > > Nadan is not invulnerable.  He
> > takes
> > > > damage (a lot of damage usually)
> > > > > and can be hurt.  He has no 
real
> > > > protections, and his hit points,
> > while
> > > > > high, are not astronomical.  
When
> > > > hit, does he not bleed?  :)  
Trust
> > me,
> > > > > he was close to death quite a 
bit
> > > > last night.
> > > > >     I do have an apology to 
make
> > to
> > > > you though.  I had Nadan cast
> > > > > spontaneous healing last 
night, as
> > > > clerics can do.  I thought he 
could
> > > > > also swap out Heal and Mass 
Heal
> > > > spells as well.  Damon mentioned
> > last
> > > > > night, when we looked up the
> > rules to
> > > > see if he could spontaneously 
cast
> > > > > Resurrection, that the rules 
say
> > only
> > > > spells with Cure in the title.  
I
> > > > > checked it out last night, and
> > Damon
> > > > was right.  So Nadan should not
> > > > > have been able to cast as many
> > Mass
> > > > Heal spells as he did last 
night.
> > > > > That should make you feel 
somewhat
> > > > better.  He takes one and 
that's it.
> > > > >
> > > > > jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > John,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You're right on target!  And
> > your
> > > > > > summary captures where 
things
> > stand
> > > > > > really well.  OK, so here's 
the
> > > > deal:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The group needs to track 
down
> > Celane
> > > > > > and Dr. Klaw.  Apparently,
> > Celane
> > > > hates
> > > > > > the Riders because one of 
them
> > > > crippled
> > > > > > her a long time ago, and her
> > > > resentment
> > > > > > is so strong that she's 
trying
> > to
> > > > keep
> > > > > > godhood out of their 
hands.  Dr.
> > > > Klaw
> > > > > > supposedly wants 
to "liberate"
> > his
> > > > > > world from "merchant 
kings", and
> > > > seems
> > > > > > to have been in control of 
the
> > > > artifact
> > > > > > from the start (since he's 
such
> > a
> > > > bad
> > > > > > guy).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The gods are important 
because
> > the
> > > > (now
> > > > > > diabolical) Amrikol wanted 
to
> > use
> > > > them
> > > > > > to weaken Dendar enough for 
him
> > to
> > > > have
> > > > > > a chance of gaining power 
(kind
> > of
> > > > like
> > > > > > when Dr. Doom confronted the
> > > > Beyonder
> > > > > > for you comics readers).  He
> > seems
> > > > to
> > > > > > have lost interest in this
> > pursuit
> > > > as a
> > > > > > result of talking to 
Gargauth, a
> > > > > > banished realms power who 
traded
> > > > > > membership in the nine with
> > freedom
> > > > > > from hell (since the nine 
have
> > that
> > > > > > authority).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm really happy with how
> > things are
> > > > > > going, and eager to see this
> > > > conclude.
> > > > > > As a DM, I'm facing two
> > challenges:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1.  Nadan - nothing against 
the
> > > > > > character or how he's 
played,
> > but
> > > > he's
> > > > > > a combination of bad 
attitude
> > and
> > > > > > tremendous power.  
Individuals
> > who
> > > > > > might not go berzerk to 
kill him
> > > > > > normally (like Ariakas) find
> > that
> > > > goal
> > > > > > to be a necessity when he 
taunts
> > > > them.
> > > > > > Ironically, he's becoming 
the
> > > > Ceranno
> > > > > > of the group.:).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is a problem for me on
> > only one
> > > > > > level - I'm worried that if 
he
> > dies
> > > > as
> > > > > > a result of a situation like
> > this,
> > > > it
> > > > > > might seem like I'm gunning 
for
> > the
> > > > > > character.  I hope it's
> > understood
> > > > by
> > > > > > everyone that if Nadan 
picks a
> > fight
> > > > > > with a big guy and dies, 
it's
> > really
> > > > > > not my preference!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2.  Convolution - I'm 
worried
> > that
> > > > the
> > > > > > plot is becoming so complex 
that
> > > > people
> > > > > > need a score card.  I 
really,
> > really
> > > > > > hope to contain that next 
week.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Also, I see this wrapping 
up in
> > the
> > > > > > next 2-3 weeks - rapidfire, 
eh?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >     Ok, first with a 
summary,
> > then
> > > > > > with thoughts.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >     The Riders had just 
come
> > from
> > > > > > Amrikol's castle in the
> > > > Thunderpeaks,
> > > > > > > and had harangued 
Elminster
> > into
> > > > > > transporting them back to
> > Sigil.  He
> > > > > > > agreed, but when they 
passed
> > > > through
> > > > > > the Worldwalk spell he cast,
> > they
> > > > > > > found themselves in Hell,
> > facing
> > > > the
> > > > > > Black Legion, who had been
> > > > > > > conversing with some 
devils.
> > > > > > >     The two groups briefly
> > spoke,
> > > > > > with Amrikol giving little
> > > > indication
> > > > > > > of his plans, when 
suddenly
> > the
> > > > Black
> > > > > > Legion attacked.  Already
> > wounded
> > > > > > > from their battle in the
> > castle
> > > > back
> > > > > > on Faerun, Quasit and 
Carpathia
> > > > > > > were quickly killed.  
Magnus
> > > > wanted
> > > > > > to retreat, but the Riders
> > became
> > > > > > > separated, and he was
> > unwilling to
> > > > > > leave anyone behind.  
Mileena
> > used
> > > > > > > her necromantic skills to
> > bring
> > > > > > Carpathia back as an undead,
> > and the
> > > > > > > Riders fought valiantly
> > against
> > > > the
> > > > > > Black Legion.
> > > > > > >     The battle was going
> > poorly
> > > > when
> > > > > > suddenly another Amrikol
> > appeared,
> > > > > > > this one looking more 
like the
> > > > > > Amrikol the Riders had 
faced in
> > > > their
> > > > > > > early days.  He declared 
the
> > other
> > > > > > Amrikol an impostor, and 
spat
> > on the
> > > > > > > Black Legion (except for
> > Talon)
> > > > who
> > > > > > he felt had betrayed him by
> > working
> > > > > > > for the doppleganger.  The
> > Amrikol
> > > > > > that had been leading the 
Black
> > > > > > > Legion recently tore off 
his
> > > > helmet,
> > > > > > revealing elvish features 
that
> > bore
> > > > > > > a striking resemblance to
> > > > Magnus.  He
> > > > > > began to fight the original
> > > > > > > Amrikol, and the Riders 
tried
> > to
> > > > stay
> > > > > > out of the way.  Eventually 
they
> > > > > > > joined the fight against 
the
> > elven
> > > > > > Amrikol, and Magnus finally
> > slew him
> > > > > > > with a Meteor Swarm.
> > However, as
> > > > > > soon as he died, he was 
reborn
> > as
> > > > one
> > > > > > > of the Nine, the arch-
fiends
> > that
> > > > > > rule Hell.  Apparently he 
had
> > made a
> > > > > > > deal with a banished 
Realms
> > power,
> > > > > > although the specifics of 
the
> > deal
> > > > > > > are unknown.
> > > > > > >     Faced with the power 
of
> > this
> > > > new
> > > > > > form, the Riders, the 
original
> > > > > > > Amrikol and Talon fled
> > through a
> > > > > > portal to Sigil.  Once there
> > they
> > > > went
> > > > > > > to Ambrosia's Inn, and 
parted
> > ways
> > > > > > with Amrikol and Talon.  
They
> > > > rested,
> > > > > > > then resurrected their 
fallen
> > > > > > comrades.  Unsure of what 
to do,
> > > > they
> > > > > > > began to research.  Magnus
> > sent
> > > > some
> > > > > > of the group to research how
> > they
> > > > > > > might gain the power they 
have
> > > > been
> > > > > > chasing, while he went to 
free a
> > > > > > > devil in exchange for
> > information
> > > > on
> > > > > > the new form of the elvish
> > > > > > > Amrikol.  He also 
recruited
> > > > Gadget to
> > > > > > their team, as it seems that
> > they
> > > > > > > will be dealing with Klaw,
> > his old
> > > > > > enemy.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >     So where does that 
leave
> > them?
> > > > > > Let me recap.
> > > > > > >     Dennis says that Klaw 
will
> > > > have
> > > > > > joined up with Celane and 
the
> > > > > > > deities, and is heading 
to his
> > > > home
> > > > > > planet.  Supposedly, Celane
> > called
> > > > > > > the remnants of the 
deities
> > to her
> > > > > > thanks to an artifact, the 
claw
> > of
> > > > > > > Dendar the Night Serpent.
> > > > However,
> > > > > > only someone with no moral
> > > > > > > compunctions can use the 
claw
> > of
> > > > > > Dendar to it's full 
potential,
> > and
> > > > so
> > > > > > > Celane will easily lose
> > control of
> > > > > > the deities to Klaw.  Klaw 
will
> > then
> > > > > > > use the power he possesses
> > to "set
> > > > > > right" things in his 
world.  The
> > > > > > > Riders are going to 
journey
> > there
> > > > to
> > > > > > make sure Klaw does nothing
> > drastic
> > > > > > > and to rescue Celane.
> > > > > > >     Meanwhile, there is 
still
> > the
> > > > > > problem of gaining the 
power of
> > the
> > > > > > > gods.  According to what 
the
> > > > Riders
> > > > > > have learned, the elvish
> > Amrikol is
> > > > > > > now out of the race.  
Their
> > devil
> > > > > > ally told them that one of 
the
> > Nine
> > > > > > > would have no time or
> > interest in
> > > > > > focusing their attention on 
one
> > > > measly
> > > > > > > little prime world when 
they
> > can
> > > > > > affect all realities 
everywhere
> > by
> > > > > > > taking part in the Blood
> > War.  He
> > > > > > should no longer be 
involved.
> > > > > > >     However, the original
> > Amrikol
> > > > is
> > > > > > now interested in the power.
> > And
> > > > > > > the Riders aren't sure 
how to
> > get
> > > > > > it.  It seems that they 
need to
> > > > > > > destroy Dendar the Night
> > Serpent
> > > > to
> > > > > > gain the power, but Dendar
> > killed
> > > > > > > all the deities of that
> > Realm, so
> > > > > > destroying him is no easy
> > task.  The
> > > > > > > Riders are looking into 
ways
> > to do
> > > > > > that now.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >     That's it for me.  
I'd be
> > > > > > thrilled if someone would
> > comment
> > > > on my
> > > > > > > conclusions and tell me if
> > they
> > > > are
> > > > > > correct.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> 
> 
>

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