[dungeoncrawl] Re: Thursday morning summary
- From: Matt McKeehan <matt.mckeehan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: "'dungeoncrawl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'" <dungeoncrawl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 14:43:10 -0400
I agree with you, each of those characters have two classes, maybe one class
will do them and me good.
Matt Mckeehan
DJS Citrix LAN Supervisor
Admin Office of The PA Courts
PA Supreme Court
(717)795-2063
(717)514-9446 mobile
-----Original Message-----
From: Johnathan Detrick [mailto:jdetrick@xxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 2:09 PM
To: dungeoncrawl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [dungeoncrawl] Re: Thursday morning summary
There is something to the fact that we were somewhat on the sidelines
last
night, I'll grant you that.
As for your characters, I'll be honest. One of the biggest mistakes you
have made with them is to give them too many classes! Sonya, Carpathia,
Gadget...all of them have two or three classes. You need to focus them.
They
are too scattered, and it weakens them. If it is ok with Jim, I'd be more
than
willing to help you whittle them down into one class each (or two at the
most)
and try and give them some direction. I know that you feel they lack items,
but
that's not the biggest thing. Items help, but they aren't everything.
Baish
and Quasit are both almost itemless, and Magnus and Nadan never used any
items
at all last night. Wait, Magnus did. Once. Point being, your characters
need
to be restructured.
Matt McKeehan wrote:
> I think what bummed me out the most from last night was the fact that our
> group " that should be the center focus" was on the side lines most of the
> night. I believe that, the adventure should focus on our group of
> characters. Last night felt like our group was watching what was going
on.
> The other thing I'm going to work on is adjusting what my characters can
do.
> Carpathia is useless in battle with everything we've been up against, he
is
> 12th level but he might as well be 7th. His weapons suck, his spells are
> worthless, this is all my fault, but for the little amount of time we play
I
> want my characters to count. He doesn't, even Gaget is not worth my time.
> (again this is me, picking lousy spells). You all have characters with a
> lot of time and they've gained many items and ways of doing things. For me
> with the little time I've had, I have not been able to transition myself
to
> adapting my characters to each situation. I just venting ... sorry. I
just
> want my time playing D&D to matter more....
>
> Matt Mckeehan
> DJS Citrix LAN Supervisor
> Admin Office of The PA Courts
> PA Supreme Court
> (717)795-2063
> (717)514-9446 mobile
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Johnathan Detrick [mailto:jdetrick@xxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 1:35 PM
> To: dungeoncrawl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [dungeoncrawl] Re: Thursday morning summary
>
> I can understand why Elminster did what he did, but it points out a
> curious double standard that all DMs have in regard to the reactions and
> attitudes of PCs versus NPCs. Tell me if you agree.
> As players, our characters are constantly put up against NPCs that
> are both more powerful and less powerful than them, and many of them
> have an attitude. From the local innkeeper that doesn't like their
> looks to the hedge-wizard Elminster, the characters are beset by people
> with a grudge on a constant basis. We have to deal with them and move
> on, and more likely than not, we have to be nice to them. NPCs, on the
> other hand, can be the biggest jerks in the world, and the characters,
> if they act against them, are always in the wrong. Not clear? Then let
> me ask you this. If a good character from our group had been verbally
> abused by another good character, and as punishment, had teleported the
> good character and their companions (some of whom were also good and
> near death) into Hell alongside some demons and their most hated
> enemies, would the DM consider that an evil act? I think so. Am I
> saying that Jim was wrong or Elminster was out of character? No. I
> don't know that any of us really know Elminster's character, and the
> reaction he had makes sense. But does anyone see the double standard I
> speak of? I'm guilty of it as a DM, and I believe all the DMs I have
> ever dealt with are as well.
> On to the matter of power levels. First of all, I feel you do Baish
> a disservice to not include him with Nadan and Magnus. He is capable of
> tremendous power (remember the 68 points of damage he did in one round,
> with only two hits?), and also is likely to involve the group in a
> confrontation. And again, we have discussed the disparate power levels
> in groups for years and years. You most certainly do not have to drop a
> mountain on Magnus and Nadan to stop them. As I mentioned, Nadan was
> near death many times, and even Magnus got down below 50 hit points at
> one time (which is a big deal for him). I mentioned this when Magnus
> was adventuring with the lower-level group, but I'll say it again. Stop
> trying to stop certain characters. Instead, do what you have been
> doing; create good stories with strong villains. If you do that, I'll
> be challenged as a player, and my characters are challenged as well.
> Once Nadan has to start healing people, he becomes little more than a
> walking band-aid, so his effectiveness is reduced. And Magnus doesn't
> want any of his comrades to die, so he'll be looking for ways to save
> him. Every death of a Rider is a blow to Magnus.
> You need to have more faith in yourself as a DM. Do we grumble from
> time to time? Hell yeah! It's a player's prerogative! I was sick and
> tired last night, so I was grumpy anyway, and I already expressed my
> frustration at not being able to pair the Riders against the Black
> Legion in a WWE style brawl. Not frustration at your plot, but
> frustration that things weren't going as I hoped. We all trust you, and
> your plot has heretofore been brilliant. Don't get caught up on the
> individual characters. Did my characters seem to over power last
> night? Of course they did! Matt's character was killed immediately, as
> was Damon's subtle character. The NPCs were mostly frozen, and my
> characters had to step up. But what dominates the game is never power,
> but always personality. If the other characters have a strength of
> personality, they will shine through just as clearly. I think Baish did
> last night, and if Carpathia hadn't been dead, I believe he would have
> as well. I look forward to seeing Gadget next week.
> Whew! Does any of this make sense?
>
> jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
>
> > Maybe I can clarify where I was coming
> > from, and simultaneously explain where
> > my concerns lie. Nadan's attitude
> > isn't necessarily "bad", but it is
> > definitely a part of his personality.
> > In the past two weeks, he's provoked
> > two powerful NPCs who could have been
> > dealt with a different way, and in both
> > cases, it resulted in problems.
> >
> > With Elminster, he offended the old
> > coot by insisting that he was in the
> > wrong. Elminster's point of view was
> > that the gods from the dead world Must
> > be contained at all costs. He also
> > felt that renegade Riders who had
> > flaunted the god's will already
> > (including Nadan) couldn't be anything
> > BUT trouble. So when Nadan unloaded on
> > him, he did the most logical thing:
> > put all of the problems together in one
> > place and let fate sort it out. The
> > fact that Nadan felt he could give
> > Elminster such grief and then expect
> > his aid demonstrates the attitude I'm
> > talking about.
> >
> > The second time was with Ariakas.
> > Mentioning that Talos was dead didn't
> > do much, but saying that he was "easy
> > to beat" went beyond the pale as far as
> > Ariakas would be concerned. The
> > attitude I mention comes from my own
> > surprise that Nadan would antagonize a
> > chaotic evil priest with seriously
> > wounded companions alongside him.
> >
> > That confrontation sparked the debate
> > between Magnus and Amrikol; Amrikol
> > felt he didn't really need the riders,
> > and Magnus's insinuation that he didn't
> > have control offended him. Combat was
> > inevitable at that point.
> >
> > Not to say that either character was
> > out of line; my own characters
> > antagonize and offend people all the
> > time. And some of them even are more
> > reasonable than Nadan normally.
> >
> > But my concern comes from the fact that
> > you have the two most powerful
> > characters in the group, and they're
> > easily the most likely to start a
> > confrontation. Much like Ceranno,
> > their values or goals take them much
> > further than their comrades are ready
> > for.
> >
> > On another note, I have to admit
> > something about last night. The reason
> > why the big showdown between the Riders
> > and the Legion didn't really happen is
> > because I saw how discouraged the
> > players were all getting. I was even
> > beginning to hear comments about how
> > unlikely it would be that Elminster
> > would set them up like that, etc.
> >
> > Instead of waiting a few more rounds to
> > introduce the old Amrikol, I sped
> > things up. I was like, "they don't get
> > it - I've made this too convoluted.
> > They don't understand that Nadan put
> > them in this mess, or that Elminster
> > takes the fact that they flaunted the
> > gods very seriously."
> >
> > I have to admit that I'm a bit
> > bewildered at this point - I have to
> > dump a mountain on the party to handle
> > certain characters, and others are very
> > vulnerable to such challenges.
> >
> > > I can understand your sentiments
> > on Nadan. But I'm surprised to
> > > hear you say he has a bad attitude.
> > I don't see it as bad. I see it as
> > > him standing up for what he believes
> > in. I think if he had stayed quiet
> > > and not confronted Ariakas, it would
> > have been a cop-out. Same with
> > > confronting Elminster, Mileena and
> > Magnus. In my eyes, he's actually
> > > acting his alignment.
> > > I'm quite enjoying the idea that
> > Nadan is very powerful. He knows
> > > that he has a lot of strength and he
> > isn't willing to compromise his
> > > principles. For so many years Magnus
> > has lorded things over the Riders,
> > > in part due to the fact that he could
> > wipe the floor with most of them.
> > > Now he has to face someone with as
> > much power as he has, and the
> > > strength to stand up to him. I love
> > the battle of wills between the two
> > > of them and just wish they both
> > weren't my character. :)
> > > Don't worry about Nadan dying,
> > especially if it comes about because
> > > he stands up for his beliefs. He
> > wasn't intentionally antagonizing
> > > Ariakas, but he is a cleric of Talos,
> > whose pretty opposed to everything
> > > Lathander stands for. If Ariakas had
> > killed him, so be it. Not a
> > > problem on my end.
> > > But Jim, don't let Nadan
> > intimidate you. I think, that out of
> > all
> > > of us, high level characters cause
> > you more concern than any other DM.
> > > Nadan is not invulnerable. He takes
> > damage (a lot of damage usually)
> > > and can be hurt. He has no real
> > protections, and his hit points, while
> > > high, are not astronomical. When
> > hit, does he not bleed? :) Trust me,
> > > he was close to death quite a bit
> > last night.
> > > I do have an apology to make to
> > you though. I had Nadan cast
> > > spontaneous healing last night, as
> > clerics can do. I thought he could
> > > also swap out Heal and Mass Heal
> > spells as well. Damon mentioned last
> > > night, when we looked up the rules to
> > see if he could spontaneously cast
> > > Resurrection, that the rules say only
> > spells with Cure in the title. I
> > > checked it out last night, and Damon
> > was right. So Nadan should not
> > > have been able to cast as many Mass
> > Heal spells as he did last night.
> > > That should make you feel somewhat
> > better. He takes one and that's it.
> > >
> > > jimkaren@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> > >
> > > > John,
> > > >
> > > > You're right on target! And your
> > > > summary captures where things stand
> > > > really well. OK, so here's the
> > deal:
> > > >
> > > > The group needs to track down Celane
> > > > and Dr. Klaw. Apparently, Celane
> > hates
> > > > the Riders because one of them
> > crippled
> > > > her a long time ago, and her
> > resentment
> > > > is so strong that she's trying to
> > keep
> > > > godhood out of their hands. Dr.
> > Klaw
> > > > supposedly wants to "liberate" his
> > > > world from "merchant kings", and
> > seems
> > > > to have been in control of the
> > artifact
> > > > from the start (since he's such a
> > bad
> > > > guy).
> > > >
> > > > The gods are important because the
> > (now
> > > > diabolical) Amrikol wanted to use
> > them
> > > > to weaken Dendar enough for him to
> > have
> > > > a chance of gaining power (kind of
> > like
> > > > when Dr. Doom confronted the
> > Beyonder
> > > > for you comics readers). He seems
> > to
> > > > have lost interest in this pursuit
> > as a
> > > > result of talking to Gargauth, a
> > > > banished realms power who traded
> > > > membership in the nine with freedom
> > > > from hell (since the nine have that
> > > > authority).
> > > >
> > > > I'm really happy with how things are
> > > > going, and eager to see this
> > conclude.
> > > > As a DM, I'm facing two challenges:
> > > >
> > > > 1. Nadan - nothing against the
> > > > character or how he's played, but
> > he's
> > > > a combination of bad attitude and
> > > > tremendous power. Individuals who
> > > > might not go berzerk to kill him
> > > > normally (like Ariakas) find that
> > goal
> > > > to be a necessity when he taunts
> > them.
> > > > Ironically, he's becoming the
> > Ceranno
> > > > of the group.:).
> > > >
> > > > This is a problem for me on only one
> > > > level - I'm worried that if he dies
> > as
> > > > a result of a situation like this,
> > it
> > > > might seem like I'm gunning for the
> > > > character. I hope it's understood
> > by
> > > > everyone that if Nadan picks a fight
> > > > with a big guy and dies, it's really
> > > > not my preference!
> > > >
> > > > 2. Convolution - I'm worried that
> > the
> > > > plot is becoming so complex that
> > people
> > > > need a score card. I really, really
> > > > hope to contain that next week.
> > > >
> > > > Also, I see this wrapping up in the
> > > > next 2-3 weeks - rapidfire, eh?
> > > >
> > > > > Ok, first with a summary, then
> > > > with thoughts.
> > > > >
> > > > > The Riders had just come from
> > > > Amrikol's castle in the
> > Thunderpeaks,
> > > > > and had harangued Elminster into
> > > > transporting them back to Sigil. He
> > > > > agreed, but when they passed
> > through
> > > > the Worldwalk spell he cast, they
> > > > > found themselves in Hell, facing
> > the
> > > > Black Legion, who had been
> > > > > conversing with some devils.
> > > > > The two groups briefly spoke,
> > > > with Amrikol giving little
> > indication
> > > > > of his plans, when suddenly the
> > Black
> > > > Legion attacked. Already wounded
> > > > > from their battle in the castle
> > back
> > > > on Faerun, Quasit and Carpathia
> > > > > were quickly killed. Magnus
> > wanted
> > > > to retreat, but the Riders became
> > > > > separated, and he was unwilling to
> > > > leave anyone behind. Mileena used
> > > > > her necromantic skills to bring
> > > > Carpathia back as an undead, and the
> > > > > Riders fought valiantly against
> > the
> > > > Black Legion.
> > > > > The battle was going poorly
> > when
> > > > suddenly another Amrikol appeared,
> > > > > this one looking more like the
> > > > Amrikol the Riders had faced in
> > their
> > > > > early days. He declared the other
> > > > Amrikol an impostor, and spat on the
> > > > > Black Legion (except for Talon)
> > who
> > > > he felt had betrayed him by working
> > > > > for the doppleganger. The Amrikol
> > > > that had been leading the Black
> > > > > Legion recently tore off his
> > helmet,
> > > > revealing elvish features that bore
> > > > > a striking resemblance to
> > Magnus. He
> > > > began to fight the original
> > > > > Amrikol, and the Riders tried to
> > stay
> > > > out of the way. Eventually they
> > > > > joined the fight against the elven
> > > > Amrikol, and Magnus finally slew him
> > > > > with a Meteor Swarm. However, as
> > > > soon as he died, he was reborn as
> > one
> > > > > of the Nine, the arch-fiends that
> > > > rule Hell. Apparently he had made a
> > > > > deal with a banished Realms power,
> > > > although the specifics of the deal
> > > > > are unknown.
> > > > > Faced with the power of this
> > new
> > > > form, the Riders, the original
> > > > > Amrikol and Talon fled through a
> > > > portal to Sigil. Once there they
> > went
> > > > > to Ambrosia's Inn, and parted ways
> > > > with Amrikol and Talon. They
> > rested,
> > > > > then resurrected their fallen
> > > > comrades. Unsure of what to do,
> > they
> > > > > began to research. Magnus sent
> > some
> > > > of the group to research how they
> > > > > might gain the power they have
> > been
> > > > chasing, while he went to free a
> > > > > devil in exchange for information
> > on
> > > > the new form of the elvish
> > > > > Amrikol. He also recruited
> > Gadget to
> > > > their team, as it seems that they
> > > > > will be dealing with Klaw, his old
> > > > enemy.
> > > > >
> > > > > So where does that leave them?
> > > > Let me recap.
> > > > > Dennis says that Klaw will
> > have
> > > > joined up with Celane and the
> > > > > deities, and is heading to his
> > home
> > > > planet. Supposedly, Celane called
> > > > > the remnants of the deities to her
> > > > thanks to an artifact, the claw of
> > > > > Dendar the Night Serpent.
> > However,
> > > > only someone with no moral
> > > > > compunctions can use the claw of
> > > > Dendar to it's full potential, and
> > so
> > > > > Celane will easily lose control of
> > > > the deities to Klaw. Klaw will then
> > > > > use the power he possesses to "set
> > > > right" things in his world. The
> > > > > Riders are going to journey there
> > to
> > > > make sure Klaw does nothing drastic
> > > > > and to rescue Celane.
> > > > > Meanwhile, there is still the
> > > > problem of gaining the power of the
> > > > > gods. According to what the
> > Riders
> > > > have learned, the elvish Amrikol is
> > > > > now out of the race. Their devil
> > > > ally told them that one of the Nine
> > > > > would have no time or interest in
> > > > focusing their attention on one
> > measly
> > > > > little prime world when they can
> > > > affect all realities everywhere by
> > > > > taking part in the Blood War. He
> > > > should no longer be involved.
> > > > > However, the original Amrikol
> > is
> > > > now interested in the power. And
> > > > > the Riders aren't sure how to get
> > > > it. It seems that they need to
> > > > > destroy Dendar the Night Serpent
> > to
> > > > gain the power, but Dendar killed
> > > > > all the deities of that Realm, so
> > > > destroying him is no easy task. The
> > > > > Riders are looking into ways to do
> > > > that now.
> > > > >
> > > > > That's it for me. I'd be
> > > > thrilled if someone would comment
> > on my
> > > > > conclusions and tell me if they
> > are
> > > > correct.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
Other related posts:
