Hoi DirkS, A simple drawing: O frame attachement (pivot point rocker arm) / \ strings to rocker arm --------- rocker arm | | strings rocker arm to swing arms __ __ left and right swing arm When you lean, the rocker arm turns around the pivot point so the strings (between rocker arm and pivot point) will turn around that same point too (a bolt fixed to the frame). The strings to the swing arm will move. One goes up in the picture, the other goes down. Those strings will turn around bolts too. Since the rocker arm in this setup is attached with string to the frame, it will bounce against the frame when the rear is lifted. I didn't like that, so I changed the strings from pivot point to rocker arm back to rod ends again. As Henry describes on his website: it doesn't matter whether the rocker arm and strings are horizontal or vertical. You can turn it around the swing arms pivot point the way you like. See his picture: http://jetrike.com/geometry/geometry-side.gif But horizontal was the easiest setup for me. Well, I made a handlebar for leaning. There were too reasons for that: to be able to stop and leave my feet on the pedals and to use when something was pushing the bike the wrong way (trailer or chambered road). Although the handlebar works, it does feel kinda odd. But I must say I might have only driven 10km with the bike and used the handlebar just a few times. It does work to keep things level when you stop and you can keep your feet on the pedals. Though, since the bike is so low to the ground, putting both feet to the ground isn't a problem at all (and even easier than keeping them on the pedals). When cycling with a proper setup (the relation between the one wheel going up and the other down), I didn't feel the need to touch the handle bar since leaning was easy to control with shifting body weight. But I did like the other handle bar for steering, which could give the bike a very short turning radius and gives easier control over shifting body weight. It's easier to pull your body to the right or left with you hands then shifting weight by just using your body. That is the main reason I like an handlebar on my normal Python as well. Hope that explained, Patrick Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 21:24:35 +0200 From: dirk@xxxxxxxxxx To: python@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Hi Patrick, just to understand your routing completely: the rocker arm with its screws/bolts on either side does not see any relative rope movement, it is just the middle bolt(?) (on the central frame, not seen in the picture) where the strings moves around when leaning? I think whether the rocker arm is itself fixed or not and is either moving with the wires or merely guiding them along could be quite a difference in swing arm movement. You are right with the "falling" wheels, this could be a supension improvement, since the downward movement of the swing arm is completely disconnected from the rest of the bike. Initially, i had a complete different idea of swing arm + rope guidance(rocker arm) in mind. Your setup is quite a bit simpler since the strings run horizontally, unlike my concept! My thought was to have a leaver/handle somewhere that moves the strings around to control leaning, but you are doing it completely by shifting bodyweight. Is this working well? Greetings, DirkS Patrick van Gompel <patrick_van_gompel@xxxxxxxxxxx> hat am 11. September 2011 um 18:39 geschrieben: > > Hey DirkS, > > I did attach a picture, but maybe it didn't come through. Here's a link: http://cycle.free-creativity.com/images/strings.jpg > It was just a testsetup and I have changed it to a fixed rocker arm again now. I did went for another ride today with the strings between rocker arm and swing arms. The feel was as great as with rod ends, no difference there. But I had bad luck. I shifted back to the lowest gear, hit a bump or something and the chain went inbetween sprocket and spokes. It did snap a few of the outer spokes. I applied full front brake and I felt the back coming loose. I stopped and bounced back into the seat. I checked the strings, but all was fine. I am still amazed how fast you can brake. With a normal bike this might have gone wrong, but here I felt rather safe. When I have fixed the wheel again I think I will do some more serious brake tests. There seems to be a lot of reaction time before things go really wrong. > Now I think of it... with strings, both wheels can go down which might be an advantage or disadvantage in certain situations. > > Btw, thanks for the fallback idea. I already had two strings, but something like an extra safety line attached to a different point would be good. > > Greetings, > Patrick > > Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 13:37:47 +0200 > From: dirk@xxxxxxxxxx > To: python@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: [python] Re: Why a Tadpole? > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Patrick, > > > > > that was quick! > > > You should use two strings in parallel, one as a fallback. Pulley with bearing is important, otherwise i guess fun is very limited... > > > you could have a simple leaver in the corner with two holes and split the strings into sections so there are only straight part in all strings. You would loose precision thought, especially with bigger ranges of movement. > > > I think it is also a very lightweight solution. Could you provide us with a picture how you implemented it so far? > > > > Greetings, > > > DirkS > > > > > > > Patrick van Gompel <patrick_van_gompel@xxxxxxxxxxx> hat am 9. September 2011 um 21:04 geschrieben: > > > > > > > > > > Hello DirkS, > > > > > > > > I tried your string theory today, as my new rod ends have not arrived yet. It does work and seems stable, although I haven't tried it on the road. I did bounce a bit up and down on the seat and made a short ride. It seems to hold and is stiff enough. Though, I am not sure about durability, since the strings do turn all the time around a bolt. A pulley/ball bearing would be the proper thing, but for this load they are big. > > > > The sound the string made -when touched like a gitar- is a bit scary though. ;-) PING!!! > > > > > > > > Thanks for the idea, it is so much cheaper than 4 or 6 rod ends. I am considering to keep them... Not sure whether I like a floating rocker arm, but for the rocker arm - swing arm connection they might be a good solution. > > > > Patrick > > > > > > > > Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 08:52:50 +0200 > > > > From: dirk@xxxxxxxxxx > > > > To: python@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > > Subject: [python] Re: Why a Tadpole? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Vi, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nice Video, especially the last second! A raised position without enough lean steer and the bike falls over... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the kettwiesel seems to work as a delta because the riders sits way back with his cog near the axle/two wheels - and since this axle is favoured through wheight distribution, it is the driven one. > > > > > > > > > > > > I case of a python setup a driven front seems more attraktive from this point of view, so a tadpole setup seems to be the right choice. > > > > > > > > > > > > My complicated lean steer idea was to have a central drive train (typical python) that is distributed to either side with a rigid cross beam(including differential) and then instead of mounting the two driven wheel directly to this cross beam, have them connected like a suspended rear wheel on a backward pointing leaver. In order to allow lean steer, the two leavers would be attached to a downwardpointing string on the other end, that runs U-shaped across to the other wheel. If you pull that string left/right you can adjust the leaning. In order to stay U-shaped, that strin obviously needs to be guided by another cross beam. > > > > > > > > > > > > The rest of the original python design could be kept as it is. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is somewhat the solution of henrys delta the other way round to make it a delta and keep stearing and leaning independend. Instead of rigid guiding rods, i came up with the string idea when i realised that a) paraglider-strings a very tought, take enormous loads per cross section and are stiff and b) you could have a suspension/damping unit between either side to combine lean steer and suspension into one - all within a light setup. > > > > > > > > > > > > I did not have the chance to try this out yet. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > greetings, > > > > DirkS > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vi Vuong <vi_vuong@xxxxxxxxx> hat am 8. September 2011 um 03:25 geschrieben: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, forgot the link > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9qt_XZDtcM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: Vi Vuong <vi_vuong@xxxxxxxxx> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >To: "python@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <python@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Sent: Wednesday, September 7, 2011 6:13 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Subject: [python] Re: Why a Tadpole? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >DW-TV clip on Hasebikes (in English) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>From: Patrick van Gompel <patrick_van_gompel@xxxxxxxxxxx> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>To: python@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>Sent: Tuesday, September 6, 2011 10:49 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>Subject: [python] Re: Why a Tadpole? > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>Hasebikes uses a differential for their Kettwiesel. It seems to be a limited slip differential, excellent for off-road. I was unable to find a link, but saw this mentioned on a forum: > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>"Haase is using the Gommier Tricycle differential unit with an O-ring > > > > > > > > > > > > > inside to preload the spider gears. You can order them from Gommier in > > > > > > > > > > > > > Taiwan they come with axle tubes, bearings, diff, hubs, axles, and disk > > > > > > > > > > > > > brake mounts for about $100.00 US. Several of our industrial trikes at > > > > > > > > > > > > > work use the differentials. Call Lawrence at Gommeir and ask him he has > > > > > > > > > > > > > all the details about the differentials." > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>Not sure, but it might be this one: http://www.arixworld.com.tw/en/products/?method=detail&aid=34 > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>100$ seems very cheap. Last time I checked for differentials, they were like 500. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>Freewheels might be easier/cheaper, but for tight turns it can be a nightmare since the inner wheel is driven but hardly moving. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>I might be wrong, but I think that Vi means that two front wheels can be put closer to the CoG because it is not limited by ones leg size. On my Python I can't move my front wheel closer to the CoG because then my balls will have serious problems ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>I don't have the problem that my bike tilts forward when braking, but I can make the front wheel slip when pushing hard on the pedals. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>Good luck with your project Vi, I am curious about your design. Please let us know. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>I was just thinking... with two front wheels there's no more wheel flop! But does that mean that now the rear part > > > > > > > > > > > > > has to flop? That would be inward of the corner for most of your body weight! That's very good, right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>Patrick > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 22:25:02 +0200 > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>From: bepb@xxxxxx > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>To: python@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>Subject: [python] Re: Why a Tadpole? > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hi Vi, > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>I don't think that the tadpole will allow to put the front wheels > > > > > > > > > > > > > closer to the CoG. I think the limit is more or less the same as > > > > > > > > > > > > > with the delta. If the CoG is to close to the front wheel(s), using > > > > > > > > > > > > > the front break can result in forward tilt, you might even hit the > > > > > > > > > > > > > ground with the chain wheel. Going downhill will make things worse. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>By the way, while a differential is the common solution for cars, I > > > > > > > > > > > > > think maybe a freewheel on both wheels might serve better and may be > > > > > > > > > > > > > easier to come by. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>In fact, a differential without additional precautions, works to > > > > > > > > > > > > > have equal torsional forces on both wheels. If one wheel slips it > > > > > > > > > > > > > will take away the power from the other wheel. You get stuck if > > > > > > > > > > > > > either of the two wheels slips. This is why a serious off-road car > > > > > > > > > > > > > has differential locks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>You are certainly right about the fairing for the delta rear wheels. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I guess either you have an enormous tail fairing or the wheels have > > > > > > > > > > > > > to go with out fairings. Or maybe with separate fairings. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>Gerald > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>On 4.9.11 21:58 , Vi Vuong wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>Hi All, > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>Yes, let us limit ourselves to FWD and pivot turning mechanism, and leave RWD aside on its own. Tadpole front wheels can be covered by the front shell piece / fairing, while delta rear wheels cannot be covered by the sharp tail of a streamlined shell. With a differential, in case one tadpole wheel slips, the other wheel can keep going. Plus tadpole wheels can be placed closer to COG for more traction than delta wheel, especially with bigger wheels / shorter riders. I am wondering if term "reverse trike" should be clarified as FWD tadpole is like a reversed FWD delta, and vice versa with RWD tadpole and FWD delta... > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>Yes, steering/braking is complicated with load/speed involved, > > > > > > > > > > > > > and may be just as difficult to build as FWD differential. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regarding control, I am hopping that steering 2 wheels with my > > > > > > > > > > > > > feet would be easier than 1 delta wheel. Theoretically more may > > > > > > > > > > > > > be better, but practically less may be more? > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>Thanks for the design primer pdf. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>Vi > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>From: Patrick van Gompel <patrick_van_gompel@xxxxxxxxxxx> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>To: python@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>Sent: Sunday, September 4, 2011 11:33 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>Subject: [python] Re: Why a Tadpole? > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>Interesting discussion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>Probably you guys know, but I found this document > > > > > > > > > > > > > very usefull for trike setup comparisons, steering > > > > > > > > > > > > > angles and other stuff: http://www.hellbentcycles.com/trike_projects/Recumbent%20Trike%20Design%20Primer.pdf > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>I was wondering this statement too: "With 2 front > > > > > > > > > > > > > wheels driving/steering/braking, we should get more > > > > > > > > > > > > > traction/control/stopping power." > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>-Not sure why 2 front wheels give better control. If > > > > > > > > > > > > > you have all the right angles for both wheels it > > > > > > > > > > > > > might, but if you have not, it probably makes things > > > > > > > > > > > > > worse. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>-Nowadays any decent brake has more than enough > > > > > > > > > > > > > power to stop the wheel. So having two front brakes > > > > > > > > > > > > > instead of one wouldn't make much difference. What > > > > > > > > > > > > > does matter is where you CoG is positioned. Usually > > > > > > > > > > > > > it is easier to flip over the two front wheels of a > > > > > > > > > > > > > tadpole than over the one more foward placed front > > > > > > > > > > > > > wheel of a delta. And, having one front brake is > > > > > > > > > > > > > less complicated than having two. A lot of tadpoles > > > > > > > > > > > > > seem to suffer from 'brake turning' (or what is the > > > > > > > > > > > > > proper word?). > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>Gerald, there is another thing to consider (your > > > > > > > > > > > > > last point). Although your legs bent to the inside > > > > > > > > > > > > > of the bent, your front wheel contact point goes to > > > > > > > > > > > > > the inside as well. So your CoG might actually move > > > > > > > > > > > > > to the outside of the bent. Of course that depends > > > > > > > > > > > > > on the construction of your bike and the rider. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>Patrick > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>From: bepb@xxxxxx > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>To: python@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 19:48:40 +0200 > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>Subject: [python] AW: Re: Why a Tadpole? > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>Hi Vi, > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>there is a strong point in the curiosity, no > > > > > > > > > > > > > question. Its been the reason I have been > > > > > > > > > > > > > thinking about a tadpole python myself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>The shell for the delta somehow need to adapt to > > > > > > > > > > > > > the bending off the trike, but in which way > > > > > > > > > > > > > could a tadpole python solve this issue? > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>Concerning driving I dont see where the FWD > > > > > > > > > > > > > tadpole has an inherent advantage. The > > > > > > > > > > > > > additional contact area will be nullified by the > > > > > > > > > > > > > less load per area for breaking and driving. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>I like the considerations about the placement > > > > > > > > > > > > > off the solar pannel. In my case, I should place > > > > > > > > > > > > > the panel on the back. I generaly drive in > > > > > > > > > > > > > westery directions in the morning and easterly > > > > > > > > > > > > > coming home from work in the evening. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>There are some sources comparing tadpole vs > > > > > > > > > > > > > delta on the net, but they seem to have in > > > > > > > > > > > > > common that they focus on LWB deltas vs SWB > > > > > > > > > > > > > tadpoles. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>But there are some huge differences between a > > > > > > > > > > > > > python delta and a LWB delta. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>*On python trikes, the load is significant more > > > > > > > > > > > > > on the front wheel. You need this to avoid wheel > > > > > > > > > > > > > slip. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>*I dont think that there is need to have the CoG > > > > > > > > > > > > > (Center of Gravity) any higher than with a > > > > > > > > > > > > > tadpole. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>*On the python trike, the frontwheel actually > > > > > > > > > > > > > tilts because off the pivot angle 0~50*. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>*Since the steering involves moving the legs to > > > > > > > > > > > > > the inside off the bent, weight distribution > > > > > > > > > > > > > should improve, certainly over the LWB delta, > > > > > > > > > > > > > most propbly also over the tadpole. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>Maybe we need a python trike based comparison? > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>Gerald > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>Von: Vi Vuong <vi_vuong@xxxxxxxxx> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>An: "python@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <python@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>Gesendet: So., 04. Sep 2011, 06:13:58 GMT+00:00 > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>Betreff: [python] Re: Why a Tadpole? > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>Hi Gerald, > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>With 2 front wheels driving/steering/braking, we should get more traction/control/stopping power. Tadpole also fits nicely in a standard streamlined shell, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jETRur5Bf58, but it should be possible to achieve similar level of aerodynamics with advanced shell design for a delta... > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>According to Lightfootcycles, the name tadpole came from the "wiggling" caused by leg movements, similar to python PSI? They also have a long pros/cons list, but seem to favor delta trikes (that they make) http://www.lightfootcycles.com/trikecomp.php Henry (Jetrike) discussed in depth on braking & turning, and favored the tadpole for larger tilting range, http://jetrike.com/tadpole-or-delta.html. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>Cargo / weight distribution is another good deciding factor for a delta or tadpole. If the load is a large flat solar panel in my case, it seems that placing it up front would give better weight distribution for a FWD. Plus having the electric motor in the rear tadpole wheel may be simpler than in front delta wheel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>Last, the curiosity factor of building a tadpole is huge :) with possibilities of sharing frame/module with a exiting bike or delta trike. Yep, the Guinea Pig needs one more module to go from bike to delta/tadpole/quad, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cy50C1Lhjw > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>Cheers, > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>Vi > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>From: Gerald <bepb@xxxxxx> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>To: python@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>Sent: Friday, September 2, 2011 11:27 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>Subject: [python] Why a Tadpole? > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>Hi All, > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>It is not that I > > > > > > > > > > > > > like to discourage > > > > > > > > > > > > > creativity - > > > > > > > > > > > > > inspired by your > > > > > > > > > > > > > ideaes, I have > > > > > > > > > > > > > been thinking > > > > > > > > > > > > > about a tadpole > > > > > > > > > > > > > python design > > > > > > > > > > > > > myself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>But actually what > > > > > > > > > > > > > specific advantage > > > > > > > > > > > > > one like to gain > > > > > > > > > > > > > from the tadpole > > > > > > > > > > > > > python design? > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just to have > > > > > > > > > > > > > something to aim > > > > > > > > > > > > > for. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>Gerald > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://dirk.steuwer.de > > > > > > > > > http://dirk.steuwer.de > http://dirk.steuwer.de