[geocentrism] Re: Saul of Tarsus.. Nick & Dan
- From: "Niemann, Nicholas K." <NNiemann@xxxxxxxx>
- To: <geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 18:47:17 -0500
JA,
Philip has stated the point well regarding Bible interpretation, so I
don't see a reason to add to that .
Where do you think I stated I "reject what scripture says". I didn't.
Please read what I have said, not what you want to suppose.
Where will I go "to look to gain understanding". You said the Bible
"seems like a likely answer". That's fine. Go to the Bible. The Bible
sends us to the Church Jesus established. So, just do what you preach,
follow the "plain meaning" and you'll end up where I am.
So, you can go directly to the Church or you can go to the Bible which
directs you to the Church. This is a "simple instruction" "from the
Bible" which you apparently are "too correct and knowlegable to take".
My response is not "holier than thou". It is "truer than thou". Not
because of me, but because I actually practice what you only pretend to
practice.
Of course you don't get this JA. One reason may be that "sin clouds the
intellect". That's for you to examine.
Thank you,
Nick.
_____
From: j a [mailto:ja_777_aj@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 4:33 PM
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Saul of Tarsus.. Nick & Dan
I've never read a more foolish responce. It simply drips with that
"holier than thou" attitude I've already acused you of and is your
particular downfall as I see it. You are too correct and knowlegable to
take simple instruction, even from the bible.
The point is quite simple - is scripture to be read very plainly or do
you need special revelation to understand scripture? If you had bothered
to read the verses quoted and actually thought about them for yourself,
you would see that they are the cornerstones of what Allen is saying to
you. His basis for how to read the bible comes from the bible itself in
the quoted scriptures mentioned.
Under what authority do you question the plain meaning of those verses?
If you reject what scripture says, how do you keep biblical authority
for anything you believe? Weather someone else has written on the
subject is meaningless. What do you say? Is the bible from God or not?
if it plainly says something, should you "go by that" or is there more
to know? If something written is dificult to understand or seems to
contradict something else, where are you going to look to gain
understanding? The bible seems a likely answer. Or are you going to
depend on some special revelation outside of scripture?
By the way, I guess I've decided to quit worrying about staying on the
geocentric topic since that never seems to be discussed anymore. Perhaps
we should rename this "I know the true way - no, I do - your wrong - no
you are" @ freelists.
JA
"Niemann, Nicholas K." <NNiemann@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
Allen,
Thank you for the followup, but you've missed the point. I had
asked the following:
"You mention that Scripture defines itself, correlates its
meaning, can be easily understood without reading into the text and
requires nothing more than acceptance of plain text...etc. My question
is, where in Scripture does Scripture give you these absolutes on how it
is to be read. Or have you developed something else outside of
Scripture to be able to make such statements (and if so, on what
authority)."
Of course "ALL Scripture is...profitable", etc. But where does
it say all the stuff you said on how it is to be read. It doesn't. The
point is you are drawing up your own guidelines (and in the process
violating the very 1 Corr provision you irrelevantly cited as your
support). You are the one without "authority" to do so.
Please read carefully before you go about preaching your
"opinions" as Truth.
If you actually want an answer to the Catholic Church's
authority, then go read it in such Catholic texts as Denzinger, which I
cited earlier, rather than asking me to reproduce via emails the
equivalent of several hundred pages of well established text. Instead,
(to again use your cite) you guys like to go around "puffed up" with
what you've "written".
Regards,
Nick.
_____
From: Allen Daves [mailto:allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 11:23 PM
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Saul of Tarsus.. Nick & Dan
This will have little meaning to others. However, as you accept
Paul I would point out the following to you and argue your objection
based on the following scripture. The short answer to any objection
about absolutes in scripture is.........well scripture!
2 timothy 2:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God,
and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for
instruction in righteousness...........
1Chorinthians 1:6. Now these things, brethren, I have
figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you
may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you
may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other. 7. For who makes
you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive?
Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you glory as if you had not
received it?
If you do not apply these principles and methodolgy even to your
own question about absolutes and my point,you will see that..........
1.If there is no absolute then you have no case for ANYTHING! We
could not argue for or aginst any doctrine, POPE, INFALIBILITY or even
salvation or anything else. There would be no point to any debate or
desscussion on or with scripture about anything. Thus, your or any
objecjection to my position would be meaningless and moot, because we
would just be trading one interpritaion for the other.
2.If there is context or reference in scripture to other
scripture how could it be irrelivant or contrary to this example and
positon. You would then find yourself arguing scripture not me and if it
cannot be understood then how can you object and or hold any position
for or agginst, to include the authority of a Pope or anyone else...
3.everyone has a God given Choice on in WHOM to put their faith
in....Jesus stated the words I speak unto you they are life..........I
base my authority on this postion on scripture. What will you base yours
on. If not on scripture then the whole disscussion and any objection you
could make is meaningless! You put your trust in man who tells you
somthing... I put mine in the scriptures that will tell me somthing
too...only if I listen and belive in ALL of them, not selectivly ignore
Plain staments Plain corelations plain terminology...the Jews did not
like jesus not becuse he taught contrary to the law...He just taught
contrary to their interpritaions of the L&P.. and He stated as much.
Which is the same reason that what I am speaking is not belived either.
4. In this particular case one must accept assumtions and
assertions external of scripture to demonstrate any other postion.. and
WHERE in scripture could you or anyone even if you had that authority
get that authority?
5. Finaly what then would be the basis for your objection to
Neville or Carl's position..they are just interpreting it the way they
see it..."Sounds groovy to me".....who am I or you to say anything
against their postions. If the Church at Rome has THE authority where
did they get it scripture.....History??? My Church history book, the
Bible dosn't mention that and if there is no absolutes from
scripture.......how could you begin to argue otherwise.
I will accept these questions as retorical so that we do not
engage in a endless debate as you put it. However, I am making this
point, it applies to everyone else on the other side of all those other
issues as much if not more so. Even without the Pual Quotes!.......so
everyone can feel free to ignore this or take a shot!
"Niemann, Nicholas K." <NNiemann@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
Allen,
Please continue the debate with Dan. My only suggestion
was to read the reference I mentioned. I don't want to get into an
endless slinging of Bible verses, especially when it's been so well
covered elsewhere. I've read the non-Catholic position posited by
non-Catholics. Have you read the Catholic position posited by
Catholics. If not, I suggest you balance your reading before reaching a
conclusion, if you truly are interested in the Truth.
I will comment though on your assumption about
Scripture. You mention that Scripture defines itself, correlates its
meaning, can be easily understood without reading into the text and
requires nothing more than acceptance of plain text...etc.
My question is, where in Scripture does Scripture give
you these absolutes on how it is to be read. Or have you developed
something else outside of Scripture to be able to make such statements
(and if so, on what authority).
Also, the fact that you need to go to such great lengths
to prove your rock point seems to be self-contradictory as to the
validity of your methodology.
Regards,
Nick.
_____
From: Allen Daves [mailto:allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 5:39 PM
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Saul of Tarsus.. Nick & Dan
Nick, I accept your response to mine and Dan's
invitation for this discussion. However, I would like to use this
opportunity to address the REAL issue "How and how not to address/use
scripture".......I am not trying to draw you out here but Dan already
accepts the Premises that Peter was not the rock then this example will
be the most strait forward for me to make to him.
Dan, Please hear me out.....Your premise that Peter was
not the rock is correct! ..However, the method of argument in your
posting for reaching that conclusion is based on similar methodology
that is used to maintain that Peter was the rock.....Namely it is a
philosophical argument or methodology(Interpretative of the scriptures
that you use to make the argument)....This is the same methodology used
in all the previous debates......Scripture defines itself! It will
correlates its meaning with itself! It can be easily understood without
reading into the text or its meaning, it requires nothing more than
acceptance of plain text external of anyone's interpretation or Ideas or
Reasoning! ..Let me demonstrate this with the "Peter and the Rock"
issue. First note the context of OT & NT STATMENTS...in all cases it is
SALVATION,ROCK, STONE, AND THE WORK OF GOD.
Deuteronomy32: 3. For I proclaim the name of the Lord:
ascribe greatness to our God. 4. He is the Rock, His work is perfect;
for all His ways are justice, a God of truth and without injustice;
righteous and upright is He............ 15. "But Jeshurun grew fat and
kicked; you grew fat, you grew thick, you are covered with fat; then he
forsook God who made him, and scornfully esteemed the Rock of his
salvation.......... 18. Of the Rock who begot you, you are unmindful,
and have forgotten the God who fathered you.........
2Samuel 22: 47. "The Lord lives! Blessed be my Rock! Let
God be exalted, the Rock of my salvation!
2 Samuel 23:3. The God of Israel said, the Rock of
Israel spoke to me: `He who rules over men must be just,
Psalms 62:7. In God is my salvation and my glory; The
rock of my strength, And my refuge, is in God.
Psalms 89:26. He shall cry to Me, `You are my Father, My
God, and the rock of my salvation.'
Psalms 94:22. But the Lord has been my defense, And my
God the rock of my refuge.
Psalms 95: 1. Oh come, let us sing to the Lord! Let us
shout joyfully to the Rock of our salvation.
Acts 12:12. "Nor is there salvation in any other, for
there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be
saved.''
Isaiah 17:10. Because you have forgotten the God of your
salvation, and have not been mindful of the Rock of your stronghold,
therefore you will plant pleasant plants and set out foreign seedlings;
Isaiah 8:14. He will be as a sanctuary, but a stone of
stumbling and a rock of offense to both the houses of Israel, as a trap
and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. 15. And many among them
shall stumble; they shall fall and be broken, be snared and taken.''
Palms 118:21. I will praise You, For You have answered
me, And have become my salvation. 22. The stone which the builders
rejected Has become the chief cornerstone. 23.This was the Lord's doing;
It is marvelous in our eyes.
Mathew 21:42. Jesus said to them, "Did you never read in
the Scriptures: `The stone which the builders rejected has become the
chief cornerstone. This was the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our
eyes'? 43. "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken
from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.
Matthew 7:21. ..........24. "Therefore whoever hears
these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who
built his house on the rock: .... 28. And so it was, when Jesus had
ended these sayings, that the people were astonished at His teaching,
1Peter 2:4. Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected
indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, 5. you also, as living
stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to
offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6.
Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture, "Behold, I lay in Zion
a chief cornerstone, elect, precious, and he who believes on Him will by
no means be put to shame.'' 7. Therefore, to you who believe, He is
precious; but to those who are disobedient, "The stone which the
builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone,'' 8. and "A stone of
stumbling and a rock of offense.'' They stumble, being disobedient to
the w ord, to which they also were appointed. 9. But you are a chosen
generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people,
that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness
into His marvelous light;
Acts 4:8. Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said
to them, "Rulers of the people and elders of Israel: 9. "If we this day
are judged for a good deed done to the helpless man, by what means he
has been made well, 10. "let it be known to you all, and to all the
people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you
crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here
before you whole. 11. "THIS IS THE STONE which was rejected by you
builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.' 12. "Nor is there
salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given
among men by which we must be saved.''
1 Corinthians 10:4. and all drank the same spiritual
drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and
that Rock was Christ.
The correlation's between all these verse is SALVATION
and ROCK & STONE.
......... People who think Jesus is calling Peter the
rock miss the whole context of all of scripture........The name Peter
means piece of stone but the whole context of scripture is the Rock that
God is supplying Jesus remarks are THOU (Peter)and THIS Stone or
Rock(JESUS).. this is why Jesus makes these remarks with Peter.
Mathew 16:18. "And I also say to you that YOU are Peter,
and on THIS rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall
not prevail against it. 19. "And I will give you the keys of the kingdom
of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and
whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.''
This argument is not philosophical or interpritive. I
show from the OT and NT Who is THE rock and Stone are. The context of
all of these discussions is Salvation which comes from the Rock or
stone ...spoken of by the L&P as God/Jesus. Peter is given the keys to
the Kingdom that is built on THE ROCK that is GOD and JESUS (in whom is
the ONLY salvation). Again scripture provides context and correlation's
with itself that need no interpretation just acceptance of those
correlation's, plain text and context. In fact in order to assert that
Peter is the rock one must ignore all the correlation's, context and
plain blunt scripture... This is why we are told not to think beyond
what is written!
Dan <danchap9@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Was Peter the Rock???
THE TRUE CHURCH.
Mathew chapter 16 verses 13 to 18:
"When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea
Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son
of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some,
Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them,
But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art
the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto
him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not
revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also
unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my
church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
Notice first of all Jesus asks his disciples
whom do men say that I the Son of man am? Because of various prophecies
in the Old Testament they came to the conclusion that Jesus was the
fulfilment of one of these. In verse 15 he makes it personal to his
disciples and you can make it personal to yourselves right now. But whom
say ye that I am? He has already told them who he is by saying I Am
which is the name that God gave to Moses in reply to who shall I say
sent me when Moses returned from Mount Sinai.
Exodus 3:13 to15:
"And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come
unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your
fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his
name? What shall I say unto them And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I
AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM
hath sent me unto you And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou
say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God
of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto
you: this is my name forever, and this is my memorial unto all
generations."
So this was God in the flesh standing before
them. Simon Peter in verse 16 Simon in Hebrew means he who harkens or
listens. And Peter means rock as in a solid stone. But later on in the
verse Jesus addresses Simon Peter as Simon Barjona. Very interesting as
we know names all have hidden meanings in Hebrew. Here Simon means he
who harkens or listens and Barjona means son of Jona. Jona means dove.
The dove is symbolic of the Holy Spirit. So Jesus is saying here blessed
are you who listen to the Holy Spirit, for flesh and blood has not
revealed it to you but my father in heaven. Now flesh and blood or man
has not revealed it to you means indoctrination of men you s ee man can
teach this day and night in the flesh and get nowhere but when God
himself through the Holy Spirit speaks directly into the innermost being
of a person that's Revelation.
John 16verse 13:
" Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come,
he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but
whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you
things to come."
That's what we all need because without that the
bible is absolutely meaningless to the carnal mind. Verse 18 is the key
to the true foundation that the Holy Spirit would like to lay in your
inner most being right now if you have the ears to hear. The rock is the
revelation that not man but my father in heaven has shown you. Peter
means a stone or solid rock. But this is not speaking of a solid
foundation. Anything built in this physical realm is only temporal. This
is speaking of a spiritual foundation. The Lord Jesus Christ.
I Corinthians chapter 3 verses 10 to 13:
"According to the grace of God which is given
unto me, as a wise master builder, I have laid the foundation, and
another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth
thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which
is Jesus Christ."
You cannot build a foundation on faith or
prosperity or revival or healing etc. Who heals who prospers who revives
who gives faith?
Hebrews chapter 12 verse 2:
"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of
our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,
despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of
God."
And on that revelation I will build my church.
The word church means to "call out or to call forth." It is not a
building made with hands. It's a people called out and set apart by God.
Now the doctrines of men will take this solid rock and put a solid
building made with the hands of man on it. The building is not the
church but the building is where the church meets. Jesus didn't talk
about it as a place to go to, but a way of living in relationship to him
and to other followers of his. Asking us where we go to church is like
asking us where we go to be us. How do we answer that? We are us and
where we go there we are. 'Church' is that kind of word. It doesn't
identify a location or an institution or a denomination. It describes a
people and how they relate to each other.
Luke chapter 17 verse 20 and 21:
"And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when
the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom
of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! Or,
lo there! For, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."
If we lose sight of that, our understanding of
the true church a called out people will be distorted. So with this
simple understanding lets take a closer look at verse 18. Blessed are
you who listens to the spirit of God for flesh and blood has not
revealed this to you but my father in heaven and on that revelation I
will call out my people. And the gates of hell will not come against it
(them).
1 Corinthians chapter 3 verse 10 to 11:
"According to the grace of God which is given
unto me, as a Wise master builder, I have laid the foundation, and
another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth
thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which
is Jesus Christ."
Jesus Christ is the spiritual foundation.
Before we build a house in the natural we have to make sure that the
foundation is deep and strong enough to support it. So it is in the
spiritual.
Galatians chapter 3 verse 28:
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is
neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all
one in Christ Jesus."
Now this is a very interesting verse. If you are
a Jew reading this you have to leave your Jewish religion and move into
Christ. If you are a gentile reading this you have to leave your Gentile
religion and move into Christ. Think about how many Gentile religions
there are and how many false Christ's there are. Not easy if you are
deceived by one of them. If you think that was a bit harsh what about
"neither male nor female." Surely that counts us all out? Consider this,
the bible talks about us being Sons of God and new creatures.& amp; amp;
lt; /P>
2 Corinthians chapter 5 verse 17:
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new
creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become
new."
So the new creature in Christ is not a Jew or a
gentile. They are neither male nor female but we are all one in Christ.
The bible also says that we are
God's body on the earth.
There is a counterfeit church out there and in
the book of Revelation she is called a prostitute or Harlot.
Revelation chapter 17 verses 3 to 6:
"So he carried me away in the spirit into the
wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of
names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. And the woman was
arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious
stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations
and filthiness of her fornication: And upon her forehead was a name
written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND
ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of
the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw
her, I wondered with great admiration."
The Beast is the coming One World Government and
the Woman is the counterfeit church. Think about it a prostitute sleeps
around committing adultery and takes all your money then leaves you for
dead. A true bride keeps herself pure and clean for her husband.
2 Corinthians chapter 6 verses 17 to 17:
"Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye
separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will
receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and
daughters, saith the Lord Almighty."
Dan.
"Niemann, Nicholas K." <NNiemann@xxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Allen,
I've seen what good (or lack thereof)
the Bible verse slinging does on this forum. If you want a Biblical
basis for Peter as the rock, read Denzinger. I'm not going to write a
book for you when it's already been done. Denzinger is a compilation
that has already been done. Read it, rather than just responding that
"there is none".
Regards,
Nick.
_____
From: Allen Daves
[mailto:allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 4:22 PM
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Saul of
Tarsus.. Nick
I have the history and Scripture.....My
point was is that there is none........ The whole basses for such is on
the premise on peter being the rock that the church was built on.
_____
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