[geocentrism] Re: Saul of Tarsus.. Nick & Dan
- From: Allen Daves <allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 19:32:01 -0700 (PDT)
If you ascribe to them the gift of the Holy Ghost to protect them from error,
are you not giving an even greater power of infallibility to these men, than we
give to the POPE , which is very limited.
NO?.If my faith was in man to translate and or preserve the word of God I could
not know!!!!!!... But my faith is in God to do that, especially since you have
yet to establish that he left any instruction anywhere for someone to take on
the role of interpreter. ??If you do not have scripture then you do not have a
basis for any argument for the Pope no mater how you look at scripture then it
is still faith in man. And if you do have scripture for that then why are you
not arguing scripture instead of trying to avoid the issue and do argumentative
acrobatics? You cant base your argument on the word of God and say that it gave
or gives authority for pope but then say scripture cannot be trusted because it
was translated by men? You are trying to reason in circles again, either you
accept the testimony of scripture or you don?t. If you don?t then where is the
authority you profess, If you do then why do you deny them? Why then bother to
quote scripture if they are not authority
and yet
the church at Rome does. They do not in any shape form or fashion deny the
authority of scripture. . You have no argument based on your own Position.
You either do not know Rome?s position on scripture or you are confused??Let me
help you..?
IV. THE CANON OF SCRIPTURE
120 It was by the apostolic Tradition that the Church discerned which
writings are to be included in the list of the sacred books.90 This complete
list is called the canon of Scripture. It includes 46 books for the Old
Testament (45 if we count Jeremiah and Lamentations as one) and 27 for the
New.91
The Old Testament: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua,
Judges, Ruth, 1 and 2 Samuel, 1 and 2 Kings, 1 and 2 Chronicles, Ezra and
Nehemiah, Tobit, Judith, Esther, 1 and 2 Maccabees, Job, Psalms, Proverbs,
Ecclesiastes, the Song of Songs, the Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach
(Ecclesiasticus), Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lamentations, Baruch, Ezekiel, Daniel,
Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai,
Zachariah and Malachi.
The New Testament: the Gospels according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John,
the Acts of the Apostles, the Letters of St. Paul to the Romans, 1 and 2
Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 and 2
Thessalonians, 1 and 2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon, the Letter to the Hebrews, the
Letters of James, 1 and 2 Peter, 1, 2 and 3 John, and Jude, and Revelation (the
Apocalypse).
The Old Testament
121 The Old Testament is an indispensable part of Sacred Scripture. Its
books are divinely inspired and retain a permanent value,92 for the Old
Covenant has never been revoked.
122 Indeed, "the economy of the Old Testament was deliberately so oriented
that it should prepare for and declare in prophecy the coming of Christ,
redeemer of all men."93 "Even though they contain matters imperfect and
provisional,"94 the books of the Old Testament bear witness to the whole divine
pedagogy of God's saving love: these writings "are a storehouse of sublime
teaching on God and of sound wisdom on human life, as well as a wonderful
treasury of prayers; in them, too, the mystery of our salvation is present in a
hidden way."95
123 Christians venerate the Old Testament as true Word of God. The Church
has always vigorously opposed the idea of rejecting the Old Testament under the
pretext that the New has rendered it void (Marcionism).
The New Testament
124 "The Word of God, which is the power of God for salvation to everyone
who has faith, is set forth and displays its power in a most wonderful way in
the writings of the New Testament"96 which hand on the ultimate truth of God's
Revelation. Their central object is Jesus Christ, God's incarnate Son: his
acts, teachings, Passion and glorification, and his Church's beginnings under
the Spirit's guidance.97
125 The Gospels are the heart of all the Scriptures "because they are our
principal source for the life and teaching of the Incarnate Word, our
Savior".98
126 We can distinguish three stages in the formation of the Gospels:
1. The life and teaching of Jesus. The Church holds firmly that the four
Gospels, "whose historicity she unhesitatingly affirms, faithfully hand on what
Jesus, the Son of God, while he lived among men, really did and taught for
their eternal salvation, until the day when he was taken up."99
2. The oral tradition. "For, after the ascension of the Lord, the apostles
handed on to their hearers what he had said and done, but with that fuller
understanding which they, instructed by the glorious events of Christ and
enlightened by the Spirit of truth, now enjoyed."100
3. The written Gospels. "The sacred authors, in writing the four Gospels,
selected certain of the many elements which had been handed on, either orally
or already in written form; others they synthesized or explained with an eye to
the situation of the churches, the while sustaining the form of preaching, but
always in such a fashion that they have told us the honest truth about
Jesus."101
127 The fourfold Gospel holds a unique place in the Church, as is evident
both in the veneration which the liturgy accords it and in the surpassing
attraction it has exercised on the saints at all times:
There is no doctrine which could be better, more precious and more splendid
than the text of the Gospel. Behold and retain what our Lord and Master,
Christ, has taught by his words and accomplished by his deeds.102
But above all it's the gospels that occupy my mind when I'm at prayer; my
poor soul has so many needs, and yet this is the one thing needful. I'm always
finding fresh lights there; hidden meanings which had meant nothing to me
hitherto.103
The unity of the Old and New Testaments
128 The Church, as early as apostolic times,104 and then constantly in her
Tradition, has illuminated the unity of the divine plan in the two Testaments
through typology, which discerns in God's works of the Old Covenant
prefigurations of what he accomplished in the fullness of time in the person of
his incarnate Son.
129 Christians therefore read the Old Testament in the light of Christ
crucified and risen. Such typological reading discloses the inexhaustible
content of the Old Testament; but it must not make us forget that the Old
Testament retains its own intrinsic value as Revelation reaffirmed by our Lord
himself.105 Besides, the New Testament has to be read in the light of the Old.
Early Christian catechesis made constant use of the Old Testament.106 As an old
saying put it, the New Testament lies hidden in the Old and the Old Testament
is unveiled in the New.107
130 Typology indicates the dynamic movement toward the fulfillment of the
divine plan when "God [will] be everything to everyone."108 Nor do the calling
of the patriarchs and the exodus from Egypt, for example, lose their own value
in God's plan, from the mere fact that they were intermediate stages.
V. SACRED SCRIPTURE IN THE LIFE OF THE CHURCH
131 "And such is the force and power of the Word of God that it can serve the
Church as her support and vigor, and the children of the Church as strength for
their faith, food for the soul, and a pure and lasting fount of spiritual
life."109 Hence "access to Sacred Scripture ought to be open wide to the
Christian faithful."110
132 "Therefore, the study of the sacred page should be the very soul of sacred
theology. The ministry of the Word, too - pastoral preaching, catechetics and
all forms of Christian instruction, among which the liturgical homily should
hold pride of place - is healthily nourished and thrives in holiness through
the Word of Scripture."111
133 The Church "forcefully and specifically exhorts all the Christian faithful.
. . to learn the surpassing knowledge of Jesus Christ, by frequent reading of
the divine Scriptures. Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ.112
IN BRIEF
134 All sacred Scripture is but one book, and this one book is Christ, "because
all divine Scripture speaks of Christ, and all divine Scripture is fulfilled in
Christ" (Hugh of St. Victor, De arca Noe 2, 8: PL 176, 642: cf. ibid. 2, 9: PL
176, 642-643).
135 "The Sacred Scriptures contain the Word of God and, because they are
inspired, they are truly the Word of God" (DV 24).
136 God is the author of Sacred Scripture because he inspired its human
authors; he acts in them and by means of them. He thus gives assurance that
their writings teach without error his saving truth (cf. DV 11).
137 Interpretation of the inspired Scripture must be attentive above all to
what God wants to reveal through the sacred authors for our salvation. What
comes from the Spirit is not fully "understood except by the Spirit's action'
(cf. Origen, Hom. in Ex. 4, 5: PG 12, 320).
138 The Church accepts and venerates as inspired the 46 books of the Old
Testament and the 27 books of the New.
139 The four Gospels occupy a central place because Christ Jesus is their
center.
140 The unity of the two Testaments proceeds from the unity of God's plan and
his Revelation. The Old Testament prepares for the New and the New Testament
fulfils the Old; the two shed light on each other; both are true Word of God.
141 "The Church has always venerated the divine Scriptures as she venerated the
Body of the Lord" (DV 21): both nourish and govern the whole Christian life.
"Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path" (Ps 119:105; cf. Is
50:4).
63 DV 13.
64 Cf. Heb 1:1-3.
65 St. Augustine, En. in Ps. 103, 4, 1: PL 37, 1378; cf. Ps 104; Jn 1:1.
66 Cf. DV 21.
67 Th 2:13; cf. DV 24.
68 DV 21.
69 DV 11.
70 DV 11; cf. Jn 20:31; 2 Tim 3:16; 2 Pt 1:19-21; 3:15-16.
71 DV 11.
72 DV 11.
73 St. Bernard, S. missus est hom. 4, 11: PL 183, 86.
74 Cf. Lk 24:45.
75 Cf. DV 12 # 1.
76 DV 12 # 2.
77 DV 12 # 3.
78 Cf. DV 12 # 4.
79 Cf. Lk 24:25-27, 44-46.
80 St. Thomas Aquinas, Expos. in Ps. 21, 11; cf. Ps 22:14.
81 Origen, Hom. in Lev. 5, 5: PG 12, 454D.
82 Cf. Rom 12:6.
83 St. Thomas Aquinas, S Th I, 1, 10, ad I.
84 Cf. I Cor 10:2.
85 I Cor 10:11; cf. Heb 3:1 -4:11.
86 Cf. Rev 21:1 - 22:5.
87 Lettera gesta docet, quid credas allegoria, moralis quid agas, quo tendas
anagogia. Augustine of Dacia, Rotulus pugillaris, 1: ed. A. Walz: Angelicum 6
(1929) 256.
88 DV 12 # 3.
89 St. Augustine, Contra epistolam Manichaei 5, 6: PL 42, 176.
90 Cf. DV 8 # 3.
91 Cf. DS 179; 1334-1336; 1501-1504.
92 Cf. DV 14.
93 DV 15.
94 DV 15.
95 DV 15.
96 DV 17; cf. Rom 1:16.
97 Cf. DV 20.
98 DV 18.
99 DV 19; cf. Acts 1:1-2.
100 DV 19.
101 DV 19.
102 St. Caesaria the Younger to St. Richildis and St. Radegunde: SCh 345, 480.
103 St. Therese of Lisieux, Autobiography of a Saint, tr. Ronald Knox (London:
Collins, 1960), 175.
104 Cf. I Cor 10:6, 11; Heb 10:l; l Pt 3:21.
105 Cf. Mk 12:29-31
106 Cf. I Cor 5:6-8; 10:1-11.
107 Cf. St. Augustine, Quaest. in Hept. 2, 73: PL 34,623; Cf. DU 16.
108 1 Cor 15:28.
109 DV 21.
110 DV 22.
111 DV 24.
112 DV 25; cf. Phil 3:8 and St. Jerome, Commentariorum in Isaiam libri xviii
prol.: PL 24, 17B.
(P) How then do you decide which book to follow. Can the Book tell you?
(A) do you belive in your own Churches position?.... I accept the same books
Rome does, it is you that has the dificulty with faith, scripture and your own
postion, not me. 1Chorinthinas 4:6. And these things, brethren, I have in a
figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn
in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be
puffed up for one against another. 7. For who maketh thee to differ from
another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst
receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?..........Do
you believe this scripture, if so then what is your argument? If you do not
belief it then it is your faith in question not mine.So we are back to where
you desperately keep trying to avoid where is it written? If it is not wrriten
then Pauls words don't mean much do they. If this verse is not relevant then
What is relevant? You ask this question but it has been my point
all
along??.If you reject what you have been given why even argue your point or
which books are or are not at all.
Philip <joyphil@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Please do it again allen. in a different color or bracketed after each specific
point, which I highlighted in purple. Philip.
Philip <joyphil@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I am quoting God?. Allen.
Yet Allen you have ignored my request to you. How do you know that the men who
translated and transcribed the scriptures into the words you are quoting were
sufficiently qualified to do it correctly.
If you ascribe to them the gift of the Holy Ghost to protect them from error,
are you not giving an even greater power of infallibility to these men, than we
give to the POPE , which is very limited.
If my faith was in man to translate and or preserve the word of God I could not
know!!!!!!... But my faith is in God to do that, especially since you have yet
to establish that he left any instruction anywhere for someone to take on that
role. No.. because if you do not have scriptue then you do not have a basis for
the Pope...
You seemed to have missed this question sent previously. I would appreciate it
being addressed, coupled with a natural follow on. which also was asked before.
How then do you decide which book to follow. Can the Book tell you? Maybe they
all do. The Mormonns say their book does, and their book was given them by
Joseph smith who says an angel guided him to it.
The only way I could trust a Book to be from God, and even then with some doubt
, is to see it fall from the sky in much as the manner of the 10 commandments.
Yet even in this God entrusted Moses , a man with authority to pass it on.
Philip.
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