[geocentrism] Re: Saul of Tarsus.. Nick & Dan
- From: "Niemann, Nicholas K." <NNiemann@xxxxxxxx>
- To: <geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 18:13:35 -0500
Allen,
Once again, you have missed the point. The point is you are "man" and
man is doing the thinking. For example, you say as to yourself: "If
scripture states or correlates to itself I accept it." This requires a
thought process by "man", i.e. you. Same approach as everyone
else---except you confine yourself, pridefully, to only what your
thought process produces.
Regards,
Nick.
_____
From: Allen Daves [mailto:allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 5:55 PM
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Saul of Tarsus.. Nick & Dan
No Nick, my approach is not the same as yours.. not even close.....If
scripture states or correlates to itself I accept it......The
correlation is independent of anyone's Ideas or opinions or
interpretations .... Your position is that when scripture states
something, what is says either cannot be understood or it means
something other than what you read unless it tells you what someone's
has told you that it means... There is no comparison here!.. If I was
accusing you of the same thing I am doing then you could show from
scripture that was the case. However, you base you faith in the church
to interpret for you, supposedly based on scripture without arguing from
scripture! ...I argue scripture from scripture! Our two approaches are
entirely different and have absolutely no similarity whatsoever! Your
logic is cir cular and baseless. Mine rest in scripture's ability itself
to tell me what it is saying not someone else doing it for me. I accept
that scripture is Jesus speaking to me.. and requires no intermediary to
interpret, only my faith in him and His words.
"Niemann, Nicholas K." <NNiemann@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
Allen,
It's always interesting to see how non-Catholics accuse
Catholics of doing what they themselves do. You mention we "must
decide on what you place your faith in: man who tells you what the
scriptures say or scriptures that will define correlate and explain
themselves if you let them" (the latter being what you apparently
profess to do) Yet, you are a man. I'm a man. The Popes throughout
history are men. The only way we can determine what scriptures say is
for a man to tell us--whether that man is myself, you or someone else.
You have faith in "mans [yours] interpretation of scripture", which is
the very thing you apparently abhor.
History demonstrates that men come up with all sorts of
different, conflicting ideas of what scripture means. They all cite
scripture in support of their theories. You are one of these men.
I simply choose to recognize I could be wrong, so I look to what
other men have said, particularly men who have been placed in a position
of authority by God to do so. You choose to ignore this possibility of
being wrong as to yourself. The Catholic Church encourages me to think
and study. Fortunately, God gave us the Church to settle the issue when
men differ. Scripture tells us this and demonstrates it happening.
Plus, it demonstrates that Christ truly didn't leave us as orphans.
Regards,
Nick.
_____
From: Allen Daves [mailto:allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 4:45 PM
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Saul of Tarsus.. Nick & Dan
I have demonstrated your arguments are self-defeating ,
inconstant and based on someone's arbitrary treatment of scriptures &
interpretations. I know very well what the problem is but it is not with
scripture. And if you are suggesting that for the last 2000 years whole
of Christendom has held to your doctrine you really don't know the
history of text or the teachings of the Roman Church through the
centuries. At the end of the day you must decide on what you place your
faith in man who tells you what the scriptures say or scriptures that
will define correlate and explain themselves if you let them. It is
still a question of Faith in scripture verse faith in mans
interpretation of scripture... Assuming of course that God gave
scripture in the first place. If he did then the meaning is intrinsic to
scripture, which is what the scriptures state. If he did not give
scripture then this is all academic nonsense. In any case you have no
argument and no point, only excuses for someone's arbitrary treatment of
scripture and claim to fame. If you cant argue scripture from scripture
then why are you arguing scripture at all?.. I did not come to set the
world strait what I have told you is what has been taught since Paul
gave scripture.. I have not argued circularly. I used the Paul quotes
for those who accept Paul as he makes very blunt statements.. but for
those who do not accept Paul I went to the L& P and Jesus statements
which make blunt identical statements and or plain correlation's with
each other in both cases no one wants to accept what is written.. All
you are interested in is offering excuse for why you do not have to
study, not to think beyond what is written and accept and believe in
what the scriptures plainly state. You are far more interested in what
they do not state or reading into when it suits you,..... in what some
man somewhere tells you they really mean. There is no logic in any of
this only confusion and you really think y ou are developing clarity
outside scripture based on scripture?! .. I have not developed a
different understanding from scripture suddenly 2000 years latter. It
has been there all the time but men like you will not hear it just like
the Jews of Jesus day would not hear it. You want to know what has
suddenly sprung up 2000 years later?...Suddenly everyone is now claiming
the Bill Clinton argument .....................what is "is".............
and you think you are going to attain enlightenment from this reasoning
...... You are consumed in darkness. My faith is in God to have given me
what I have and need already for salvation I was not there 2000 years
ago, but I am here today... I don't know exactly who did and did not do
what 2000 years ago.. but I can see what YOU are doing today!.... Jesus
said unless you become as a little child ....not as a Harvard
Theological seminary Scholar of textual authoritative advancement and
certification! But then again ....Who knows what He really meant
anyway......Salvation has always been with faith in God, not in man or
ones own abilities!
"Niemann, Nicholas K." <NNiemann@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
Yes, Allen, you have done all of this quoting and
explaining, and you have reached a different set of conclusions about
the meaning of the same texts from the well stated and well reasoned and
consistent conclusions of Christian scholars and thinkers from
throughout 2000 years of Christian history. Aren't we lucky that you
were finally born to enlighten all of us and set the Christian world
straight.
Thank you for your personal "opinions", wrong as they
are. There is an "other authority established", you just don't see it
from the plain text, apparently because you want to deny its existence
and credibility.
Regards,
Nick.
_____
From: Allen Daves [mailto:allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 10:21 PM
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Saul of Tarsus.. Nick & Dan
I will point out in this little love feast of ambiguity
and willful uncertainty, that the things I have been discussing do not
differentiate from text to text to any meaningful degree, if the context
and use of all scriptures are applied.....Yes, why do that?.......... I
have quoted Plain statements that have the same force in any text used
thus far, correlated with other plain statements from the L&P and Jesus.
I have shown how Jesus uses the same statements and or Ideas.. This does
not change from any of the text used here from text to text.......Where
there has been question in all cases I refereed to scripture and context
or scripture to id, define or clarify and if any "better" translations,
if there is such... which can all be done from the text themselves. In
all case the same meaning can be attained from all of these different
versions by simple application of the context of all the scriptures in
these versions. This attempt at textual ambiguity will not withstand
textu al scrutiny, as no other meaning than what was pointed out can be
attained from these versions without an inconstant use and out right
ignoring your own text! In any case you are straining a gnat while
trying to justify swallowing the Camel by ignoring the obvious. Further,
no mater what version you use, if you ignore plain statements and
correlation's from the text to itself what difference does it make
anyway and since there is no other authority established, just what is
your point anyway???
"Niemann, Nicholas K." <NNiemann@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
JA,
Just one comment, rather than taking on
everything.
You say you are "no scholar" but your "take" is
that what was to be in the Bible "was pretty well sorted out before the
roman catholics put there stamp on it." Does "pretty well sorted out"
mean "completely sorted out".
No, it doesn't. Aside from why it was even
pretty well sorted up to then, who finished the job---which you clearly
acknowledge someone must have done. Realize that the final
determination would be critical--since letting in even a small error
could be disastrous.
Do you see what your caveat reveals about you?
Regards,
Nick.
_____
From: j a [mailto:ja_777_aj@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 4:18 PM
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Saul of Tarsus.. Nick
& Dan
Sorry, ja, but you are mistaken on many fronts
here. It is certainly not a "moot" point, it is an extremely important
point. Who exactly was Yeshuwa' asking his Father to forgive? You have
to have knowledge of the meaning of the true scriptures, reasoning power
and Holy Spirit in order to answer this essential question. I agree with
your last statement. But if a scripture does not say something than
asking why it doesn't does not prove the point Philip is trying to make.
It may mean research & study, but it does not mean that the truth can't
be found or that special revelation is needed or that it is a matter of
interpritation.
You also need to address the issue of why you
have the "Bible" on your bookshelf in the form that it is in. Who
decided which books to include and which to exclude, particularly from
the so-called "New Testament"? You will find that, as Nick and Philip
will rightly tell you, it was the Roman Catholic Church. Their argument
would then be, if the Catholic church was commissioned to decide which
books should be there, it seems reasonable to presume that it would also
be given the wisdom to interpret the scriptures contained therein. This
aspect of Nick's argument is completely bona fide, in my opinion, and
you would need to seriously address it. I am no scholar in this area but
my take on this is that is was pretty well sorted out before the roman
catholics put there stamp on it. God's purpose always takes place even
under the noses of those gathering to oppose him. I mean I'm sure satan
was real happy and working hard to ensure Christ's crucifiction, but
look what happened because of it. Just because the catholic church takes
authority it doesn't have or takes positons which are unbiblical doesn't
mean that any accomplishment of thier's is invalid nor that those
involved are unsaved.
You also need to ask yourself why scripture
appears contradictory, which it most certainly does. Do not call me
either an atheist or a "liberal," but rather examine the evidence for
yourself. As a simple example, consider the following: There are
hundereds, maybe thousands of such things you could quote which seem
contradictory. I could spend alot of time researching the answers for
you as I used to do when I was evaluating such arguements against the
bible. Everyone I ever researched was answered and still fell within the
framework that Allen presented for you in understanding scripture.
(Mat 27:38 KJV) Then were there two thieves
crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.
(Mat 27:39 KJV) And they that passed by reviled
him, wagging their heads,
(Mat 27:40 KJV) And saying, Thou that
destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If
thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.
(Mat 27:41 KJV) Likewise also the chief priests
mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,
(Mat 27:42 KJV) He saved others; himself he
cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the
cross, and we will believe him.
(Mat 27:43 KJV) He trusted in God; let him
deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.
(Mat 27:44 KJV) The thieves also, which were
crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.
as opposed to:
(Luke 23:39 KJV) And one of the malefactors
which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself
and us.
(Luke 23:40 KJV) But the other answering
rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same
condemnation?
(Luke 23:41 KJV) And we indeed justly; for we
receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing
amiss.
(Luke 23:42 KJV) And he said unto Jesus, Lord,
remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
(Luke 23:43 KJV) And Jesus said unto him,
Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
As for your, "It is an arguement that does not
contradict the point he is trying to contradict," what can I (or anyone
else) say?! Your arguement seems to be a better choice in making Philips
point, but his original still does not. However, I will study this
particular one and see if I can give a satisfactiory answer within
Allens' framework. I can give one answer without looking into it; the
account of the theives speaking is not contradictory if one thief spoke
one way and then changed his mind and then spoke the other way. You may
think that's too much private interpritation but that's just off the top
of my head. It is a simple way of reading the verses that satisfy's the
verses so they do not contradict and requires only very simple logic. If
two people wrote an account of some moment of anothers life and one said
"he took the lords name in vain" and the other wrote that he "spok e
well of the lord" could both statements be true? Well yes, I've heard a
godly man say something he shouldn't in a moment of pain or anger right
after or before saying something good.
"Dr. Neville Jones" <ntj005@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
j a <ja_777_aj@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
My responces are in red
Philip has stated the point well
regarding Bible interpretation, so I don't see a reason to add to that .
His position is the same as any atheist or liberal christian. That the
bible is too contradictory. The atheist uses that to say it isn't true.
The Liberal uses it to excuse whatever he already wants to believe.
(pardon me for using the "liberal" word but I needed some descriptor for
what I was saying.) Yes, it is true that someting difficult may need
research like reading other verses or looking up definitions for words
in original languages or perhaps some othe rmethod. But Phillips point
of trying to determine who "they" were is moot. It is an arguement that
does not contradict the point he is trying to contradict. If the verse
does not say who they are than it doesn't say. If some other scripture
elsewhere in the bible describes the same event and says who they are,
than it do es. What is so difficult about that? How does that violate
reading the scriptures as plainly as possibly?
Sorry, ja, but you are mistaken on many
fronts here. It is certainly not a "moot" point, it is an extremely
important point. Who exactly was Yeshuwa' asking his Father to forgive?
You have to have knowledge of the meaning of the true scriptures,
reasoning power and Holy Spirit in order to answer this essential
question.
You also need to address the issue of
why you have the "Bible" on your bookshelf in the form that it is in.
Who decided which books to include and which to exclude, particularly
from the so-called "New Testament"? You will find that, as Nick and
Philip will rightly tell you, it was the Roman Catholic Church. Their
argument would then be, if the Catholic church was commissioned to
decide which books should be there, it seems reasonable to presume that
it would also be given the wisdom to interpret the scriptures contained
therein. This aspect of Nick's argument is completely bona fide, in my
opinion, and you would need to seriously address it.
You also need to ask yourself why
scripture appears contradictory, which it most certainly does. Do not
call me either an atheist or a "liberal," but rather examine the
evidence for yourself. As a simple example, consider the following:
(Mat 27:38 KJV) Then were there two
thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the
left.
(Mat 27:39 KJV) And they that passed by
reviled him, wagging their heads,
(Mat 27:40 KJV) And saying, Thou that
destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If
thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.
(Mat 27:41 KJV) Likewise also the chief
priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,
(Mat 27:42 KJV) He saved others;
himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come
down from the cross, and we will believe him.
(Mat 27:43 KJV) He trusted in God; let
him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of
God.
(Mat 27:44 KJV) The thieves also, which
were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.
as opposed to:
(Luke 23:39 KJV) And one of the
malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ,
save thyself and us.
(Luke 23:40 KJV) But the other
answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art
in the same condemnation?
(Luke 23:41 KJV) And we indeed justly;
for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done
nothing amiss.
(Luke 23:42 KJV) And he said unto
Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
(Luke 23:43 KJV) And Jesus said unto
him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
As for your, "It is an arguement that
does not contradict the point he is trying to contradict," what can I
(or anyone else) say?!
Neville.
_____
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