[geocentrism] Re: Saul of Tarsus.. Nick & Dan
- From: "Niemann, Nicholas K." <NNiemann@xxxxxxxx>
- To: <geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 13:42:58 -0500
Allen,
Thank you for the followup, but you've missed the point. I had asked the
following:
"You mention that Scripture defines itself, correlates its meaning, can
be easily understood without reading into the text and requires nothing
more than acceptance of plain text...etc. My question is, where in
Scripture does Scripture give you these absolutes on how it is to be
read. Or have you developed something else outside of Scripture to be
able to make such statements (and if so, on what authority)."
Of course "ALL Scripture is...profitable", etc. But where does it say
all the stuff you said on how it is to be read. It doesn't. The point
is you are drawing up your own guidelines (and in the process violating
the very 1 Corr provision you irrelevantly cited as your support). You
are the one without "authority" to do so.
Please read carefully before you go about preaching your "opinions" as
Truth.
If you actually want an answer to the Catholic Church's authority, then
go read it in such Catholic texts as Denzinger, which I cited earlier,
rather than asking me to reproduce via emails the equivalent of several
hundred pages of well established text. Instead, (to again use your
cite) you guys like to go around "puffed up" with what you've "written".
Regards,
Nick.
_____
From: Allen Daves [mailto:allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 11:23 PM
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Saul of Tarsus.. Nick & Dan
This will have little meaning to others. However, as you accept Paul I
would point out the following to you and argue your objection based on
the following scripture. The short answer to any objection about
absolutes in scripture is.........well scripture!
2 timothy 2:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is
profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in
righteousness...........
1Chorinthians 1:6. Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively
transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in
us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed
up on behalf of one against the other. 7. For who makes you differ
from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you
did indeed receive it, why do you glory as if you had not received it?
If you do not apply these principles and methodolgy even to your own
question about absolutes and my point,you will see that..........
1.If there is no absolute then you have no case for ANYTHING! We could
not argue for or aginst any doctrine, POPE, INFALIBILITY or even
salvation or anything else. There would be no point to any debate or
desscussion on or with scripture about anything. Thus, your or any
objecjection to my position would be meaningless and moot, because we
would just be trading one interpritaion for the other.
2.If there is context or reference in scripture to other scripture how
could it be irrelivant or contrary to this example and positon. You
would then find yourself arguing scripture not me and if it cannot be
understood then how can you object and or hold any position for or
agginst, to include the authority of a Pope or anyone else...
3.everyone has a God given Choice on in WHOM to put their faith
in....Jesus stated the words I speak unto you they are life..........I
base my authority on this postion on scripture. What will you base yours
on. If not on scripture then the whole disscussion and any objection you
could make is meaningless! You put your trust in man who tells you
somthing... I put mine in the scriptures that will tell me somthing
too...only if I listen and belive in ALL of them, not selectivly ignore
Plain staments Plain corelations plain terminology...the Jews did not
like jesus not becuse he taught contrary to the law...He just taught
contrary to their interpritaions of the L&P.. and He stated as much.
Which is the same reason that what I am speaking is not belived either.
4. In this particular case one must accept assumtions and assertions
external of scripture to demonstrate any other postion.. and WHERE in
scripture could you or anyone even if you had that authority get that
authority?
5. Finaly what then would be the basis for your objection to Neville or
Carl's position..they are just interpreting it the way they see
it..."Sounds groovy to me".....who am I or you to say anything against
their postions. If the Church at Rome has THE authority where did they
get it scripture.....History??? My Church history book, the Bible
dosn't mention that and if there is no absolutes from
scripture.......how could you begin to argue otherwise.
I will accept these questions as retorical so that we do not engage in a
endless debate as you put it. However, I am making this point, it
applies to everyone else on the other side of all those other issues as
much if not more so. Even without the Pual Quotes!.......so everyone can
feel free to ignore this or take a shot!
"Niemann, Nicholas K." <NNiemann@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
Allen,
Please continue the debate with Dan. My only suggestion was to
read the reference I mentioned. I don't want to get into an endless
slinging of Bible verses, especially when it's been so well covered
elsewhere. I've read the non-Catholic position posited by
non-Catholics. Have you read the Catholic position posited by
Catholics. If not, I suggest you balance your reading before reaching a
conclusion, if you truly are interested in the Truth.
I will comment though on your assumption about Scripture. You
mention that Scripture defines itself, correlates its meaning, can be
easily understood without reading into the text and requires nothing
more than acceptance of plain text...etc.
My question is, where in Scripture does Scripture give you these
absolutes on how it is to be read. Or have you developed something else
outside of Scripture to be able to make such statements (and if so, on
what authority).
Also, the fact that you need to go to such great lengths to
prove your rock point seems to be self-contradictory as to the validity
of your methodology.
Regards,
Nick.
_____
From: Allen Daves [mailto:allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 5:39 PM
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Saul of Tarsus.. Nick & Dan
Nick, I accept your response to mine and Dan's invitation for
this discussion. However, I would like to use this opportunity to
address the REAL issue "How and how not to address/use
scripture".......I am not trying to draw you out here but Dan already
accepts the Premises that Peter was not the rock then this example will
be the most strait forward for me to make to him.
Dan, Please hear me out.....Your premise that Peter was not the
rock is correct! ..However, the method of argument in your posting for
reaching that conclusion is based on similar methodology that is used
to maintain that Peter was the rock.....Namely it is a philosophical
argument or methodology(Interpretative of the scriptures that you use
to make the argument)....This is the same methodology used in all the
previous debates......Scripture defines itself! It will correlates its
meaning with itself! It can be easily understood without reading into
the text or its meaning, it requires nothing more than acceptance of
plain text external of anyone's interpretation or Ideas or Reasoning!
..Let me demonstrate this with the "Peter and the Rock" issue. First
note the context of OT & NT STATMENTS...in all cases it is
SALVATION,ROCK, STONE, AND THE WORK OF GOD.
Deuteronomy32: 3. For I proclaim the name of the Lord: ascribe
greatness to our God. 4. He is the Rock, His work is perfect; for all
His ways are justice, a God of truth and without injustice; righteous
and upright is He............ 15. "But Jeshurun grew fat and kicked; you
grew fat, you grew thick, you are covered with fat; then he forsook God
who made him, and scornfully esteemed the Rock of his
salvation.......... 18. Of the Rock who begot you, you are unmindful,
and have forgotten the God who fathered you.........
2Samuel 22: 47. "The Lord lives! Blessed be my Rock! Let God be
exalted, the Rock of my salvation!
2 Samuel 23:3. The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spoke
to me: `He who rules over men must be just,
Psalms 62:7. In God is my salvation and my glory; The rock of my
strength, And my refuge, is in God.
Psalms 89:26. He shall cry to Me, `You are my Father, My God,
and the rock of my salvation.'
Psalms 94:22. But the Lord has been my defense, And my God the
rock of my refuge.
Psalms 95: 1. Oh come, let us sing to the Lord! Let us shout
joyfully to the Rock of our salvation.
Acts 12:12. "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is
no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.''
Isaiah 17:10. Because you have forgotten the God of your
salvation, and have not been mindful of the Rock of your stronghold,
therefore you will plant pleasant plants and set out foreign seedlings;
Isaiah 8:14. He will be as a sanctuary, but a stone of stumbling
and a rock of offense to both the houses of Israel, as a trap and a
snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. 15. And many among them shall
stumble; they shall fall and be broken, be snared and taken.''
Palms 118:21. I will praise You, For You have answered me, And
have become my salvation. 22. The stone which the builders rejected Has
become the chief cornerstone. 23.This was the Lord's doing; It is
marvelous in our eyes.
Mathew 21:42. Jesus said to them, "Did you never read in the
Scriptures: `The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief
cornerstone. This was the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our
eyes'? 43. "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken
from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.
Matthew 7:21. ..........24. "Therefore whoever hears these
sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built
his house on the rock: .... 28. And so it was, when Jesus had ended
these sayings, that the people were astonished at His teaching,
1Peter 2:4. Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed
by men, but chosen by God and precious, 5. you also, as living stones,
are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up
spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6.
Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture, "Behold, I lay in Zion
a chief cornerstone, elect, precious, and he who believes on Him will by
no means be put to shame.'' 7. Therefore, to you who believe, He is
precious; but to those who are disobedient, "The stone which the
builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone,'' 8. and "A stone of
stumbling and a rock of offense.'' They stumble, being disobedient to
the w ord, to which they also were appointed. 9. But you are a chosen
generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people,
that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness
into His marvelous light;
Acts 4:8. Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them,
"Rulers of the people and elders of Israel: 9. "If we this day are
judged for a good deed done to the helpless man, by what means he has
been made well, 10. "let it be known to you all, and to all the people
of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you
crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here
before you whole. 11. "THIS IS THE STONE which was rejected by you
builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.' 12. "Nor is there
salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given
among men by which we must be saved.''
1 Corinthians 10:4. and all drank the same spiritual drink. For
they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was
Christ.
The correlation's between all these verse is SALVATION and ROCK
& STONE.
......... People who think Jesus is calling Peter the rock miss
the whole context of all of scripture........The name Peter means piece
of stone but the whole context of scripture is the Rock that God is
supplying Jesus remarks are THOU (Peter)and THIS Stone or Rock(JESUS)..
this is why Jesus makes these remarks with Peter.
Mathew 16:18. "And I also say to you that YOU are Peter, and on
THIS rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not
prevail against it. 19. "And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of
heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and
whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.''
This argument is not philosophical or interpritive. I show from
the OT and NT Who is THE rock and Stone are. The context of all of these
discussions is Salvation which comes from the Rock or stone ...spoken
of by the L&P as God/Jesus. Peter is given the keys to the Kingdom that
is built on THE ROCK that is GOD and JESUS (in whom is the ONLY
salvation). Again scripture provides context and correlation's with
itself that need no interpretation just acceptance of those
correlation's, plain text and context. In fact in order to assert that
Peter is the rock one must ignore all the correlation's, context and
plain blunt scripture... This is why we are told not to think beyond
what is written!
Dan <danchap9@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Was Peter the Rock???
THE TRUE CHURCH.
Mathew chapter 16 verses 13 to 18:
"When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi,
he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man
am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias;
and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But
whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the
Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto
him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not
revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also
unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my
church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
Notice first of all Jesus asks his disciples whom do men
say that I the Son of man am? Because of various prophecies in the Old
Testament they came to the conclusion that Jesus was the fulfilment of
one of these. In verse 15 he makes it personal to his disciples and you
can make it personal to yourselves right now. But whom say ye that I am?
He has already told them who he is by saying I Am which is the name that
God gave to Moses in reply to who shall I say sent me when Moses
returned from Mount Sinai.
Exodus 3:13 to15:
"And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the
children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers
hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? What
shall I say unto them And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he
said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me
unto you And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the
children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham,
the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is
my name forever, and this is my memorial unto all generations."
So this was God in the flesh standing before them. Simon
Peter in verse 16 Simon in Hebrew means he who harkens or listens. And
Peter means rock as in a solid stone. But later on in the verse Jesus
addresses Simon Peter as Simon Barjona. Very interesting as we know
names all have hidden meanings in Hebrew. Here Simon means he who
harkens or listens and Barjona means son of Jona. Jona means dove. The
dove is symbolic of the Holy Spirit. So Jesus is saying here blessed are
you who listen to the Holy Spirit, for flesh and blood has not revealed
it to you but my father in heaven. Now flesh and blood or man has not
revealed it to you means indoctrination of men you s ee man can teach
this day and night in the flesh and get nowhere but when God himself
through the Holy Spirit speaks directly into the innermost being of a
person that's Revelation.
John 16verse 13:
" Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will
guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but
whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you
things to come."
That's what we all need because without that the bible
is absolutely meaningless to the carnal mind. Verse 18 is the key to the
true foundation that the Holy Spirit would like to lay in your inner
most being right now if you have the ears to hear. The rock is the
revelation that not man but my father in heaven has shown you. Peter
means a stone or solid rock. But this is not speaking of a solid
foundation. Anything built in this physical realm is only temporal. This
is speaking of a spiritual foundation. The Lord Jesus Christ.
I Corinthians chapter 3 verses 10 to 13:
"According to the grace of God which is given unto me,
as a wise master builder, I have laid the foundation, and another
buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus
Christ."
You cannot build a foundation on faith or prosperity or
revival or healing etc. Who heals who prospers who revives who gives
faith?
Hebrews chapter 12 verse 2:
"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our
faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,
despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of
God."
And on that revelation I will build my church. The word
church means to "call out or to call forth." It is not a building made
with hands. It's a people called out and set apart by God. Now the
doctrines of men will take this solid rock and put a solid building made
with the hands of man on it. The building is not the church but the
building is where the church meets. Jesus didn't talk about it as a
place to go to, but a way of living in relationship to him and to other
followers of his. Asking us where we go to church is like asking us
where we go to be us. How do we answer that? We are us and where we go
there we are. 'Church' is that kind of word. It doesn't identify a
location or an institution or a denomination. It describes a people and
how they relate to each other.
Luke chapter 17 verse 20 and 21:
"And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the
kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of
God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! Or, lo
there! For, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."
If we lose sight of that, our understanding of the true
church a called out people will be distorted. So with this simple
understanding lets take a closer look at verse 18. Blessed are you who
listens to the spirit of God for flesh and blood has not revealed this
to you but my father in heaven and on that revelation I will call out my
people. And the gates of hell will not come against it (them).
1 Corinthians chapter 3 verse 10 to 11:
"According to the grace of God which is given unto me,
as a Wise master builder, I have laid the foundation, and another
buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus
Christ."
Jesus Christ is the spiritual foundation. Before we
build a house in the natural we have to make sure that the foundation is
deep and strong enough to support it. So it is in the spiritual.
Galatians chapter 3 verse 28:
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond
nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ
Jesus."
Now this is a very interesting verse. If you are a Jew
reading this you have to leave your Jewish religion and move into
Christ. If you are a gentile reading this you have to leave your Gentile
religion and move into Christ. Think about how many Gentile religions
there are and how many false Christ's there are. Not easy if you are
deceived by one of them. If you think that was a bit harsh what about
"neither male nor female." Surely that counts us all out? Consider this,
the bible talks about us being Sons of God and new creatures.& amp; lt;
/P>
2 Corinthians chapter 5 verse 17:
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new
creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become
new."
So the new creature in Christ is not a Jew or a gentile.
They are neither male nor female but we are all one in Christ.
The bible also says that we are God's body
on the earth.
There is a counterfeit church out there and in the book
of Revelation she is called a prostitute or Harlot.
Revelation chapter 17 verses 3 to 6:
"So he carried me away in the spirit into the
wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of
names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. And the woman was
arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious
stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations
and filthiness of her fornication: And upon her forehead was a name
written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND
ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of
the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw
her, I wondered with great admiration."
The Beast is the coming One World Government and the
Woman is the counterfeit church. Think about it a prostitute sleeps
around committing adultery and takes all your money then leaves you for
dead. A true bride keeps herself pure and clean for her husband.
2 Corinthians chapter 6 verses 17 to 17:
"Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate,
saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters,
saith the Lord Almighty."
Dan.
"Niemann, Nicholas K." <NNiemann@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
Allen,
I've seen what good (or lack thereof) the Bible
verse slinging does on this forum. If you want a Biblical basis for
Peter as the rock, read Denzinger. I'm not going to write a book for
you when it's already been done. Denzinger is a compilation that has
already been done. Read it, rather than just responding that "there is
none".
Regards,
Nick.
_____
From: Allen Daves
[mailto:allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 4:22 PM
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Saul of Tarsus.. Nick
I have the history and Scripture.....My point
was is that there is none........ The whole basses for such is on the
premise on peter being the rock that the church was built on.
_____
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