[geocentrism] Re: Saul of Tarsus.. Nick & Dan

  • From: "Niemann, Nicholas K." <NNiemann@xxxxxxxx>
  • To: <geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 15:54:41 -0500

 
Yes, Allen, you have done all of this quoting and explaining, and you
have reached a different set of conclusions about the meaning of the
same texts from the well stated and well reasoned and consistent
conclusions of Christian scholars and thinkers from throughout 2000
years of Christian history.  Aren't we lucky that you were finally born
to enlighten all of us and set the Christian world straight.
 
Thank you for your personal "opinions", wrong as they are.  There is an
"other authority established", you just don't see it from the plain
text, apparently because you want to deny its existence and credibility.
 
Regards,
Nick.
 


  _____  

From: Allen Daves [mailto:allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx] 
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 10:21 PM
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Saul of Tarsus.. Nick & Dan


I will point out in this little love feast of ambiguity and willful
uncertainty, that the things I have been discussing do not differentiate
from text to text to any meaningful degree, if the context and use of
all scriptures are applied.....Yes, why do that?.......... I have quoted
Plain statements that have the same force in any text used thus far,
correlated with other plain statements from the L&P and Jesus. I have
shown how Jesus uses the same statements and or Ideas.. This does not
change from any of the text used here from text to text.......Where
there has been question in all cases I refereed to scripture and context
or scripture to id, define or clarify and if any "better" translations,
if there is such... which can all be done from the text themselves. In
all case the same meaning can be attained from all of these different
versions by simple application of the context of all the scriptures in
these versions. This attempt at textual ambiguity will not withstand
textu al scrutiny, as no other meaning than what was pointed out can be
attained from these versions without an inconstant use and out right
ignoring your own text! In any case you are straining a gnat while
trying to justify swallowing the Camel by ignoring the obvious. Further,
no mater what version you use, if you ignore plain statements and
correlation's from the text to itself what difference does it make
anyway and since there is no other authority established, just what is
your point anyway???


"Niemann, Nicholas K." <NNiemann@xxxxxxxx> wrote:

        JA,
        Just one comment, rather than taking on everything.
         
        You say you are "no scholar" but your "take" is that what was to
be in the Bible "was pretty well sorted out before the roman catholics
put there stamp on it."    Does "pretty well sorted out" mean
"completely sorted out".  
         
        No, it doesn't.  Aside from why it was even pretty well sorted
up to then,  who finished the job---which you clearly acknowledge
someone must have done.  Realize that the final determination would be
critical--since letting in even a small error could be disastrous.  
         
        Do you see what your caveat reveals about you?
         
        Regards,
        Nick.
         

  _____  

        From: j a [mailto:ja_777_aj@xxxxxxxxx] 
        Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 4:18 PM
        To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
        Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Saul of Tarsus.. Nick & Dan
        
        
        Sorry, ja, but you are mistaken on many fronts here. It is
certainly not a "moot" point, it is an extremely important point. Who
exactly was Yeshuwa' asking his Father to forgive? You have to have
knowledge of the meaning of the true scriptures, reasoning power and
Holy Spirit in order to answer this essential question. I agree with
your last statement. But if a scripture does not say something than
asking why it doesn't does not prove the point Philip is trying to make.
It may mean research & study, but it does not mean that the truth can't
be found or that special revelation is needed or that it is a matter of
interpritation.
         
        You also need to address the issue of why you have the "Bible"
on your bookshelf in the form that it is in. Who decided which books to
include and which to exclude, particularly from the so-called "New
Testament"? You will find that, as Nick and Philip will rightly tell
you, it was the Roman Catholic Church. Their argument would then be, if
the Catholic church was commissioned to decide which books should be
there, it seems reasonable to presume that it would also be given the
wisdom to interpret the scriptures contained therein. This aspect of
Nick's argument is completely bona fide, in my opinion, and you would
need to seriously address it. I am no scholar in this area but my take
on this is that is was pretty well sorted out before the roman catholics
put there stamp on it. God's purpose always takes place even under the
noses of those gathering to oppose him. I mean I'm sure satan was real
happy and working hard to ensure Christ's crucifiction, but look what
happened because of it. Just because the catholic church takes authority
it doesn't have or takes positons which are unbiblical doesn't mean that
any accomplishment of thier's is invalid nor that those involved are
unsaved.
         
        You also need to ask yourself why scripture appears
contradictory, which it most certainly does. Do not call me either an
atheist or a "liberal," but rather examine the evidence for yourself. As
a simple example, consider the following: There are hundereds, maybe
thousands of such things you could quote which seem contradictory. I
could spend alot of time researching the answers for you as I used to do
when I was evaluating such arguements against the bible. Everyone I ever
researched was answered and still fell within the framework that Allen
presented for you in understanding scripture.
         
        (Mat 27:38 KJV)  Then were there two thieves crucified with him,
one on the right hand, and another on the left.
        (Mat 27:39 KJV)  And they that passed by reviled him, wagging
their heads,
        (Mat 27:40 KJV)  And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple,
and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God,
come down from the cross.
        (Mat 27:41 KJV)  Likewise also the chief priests mocking him,
with the scribes and elders, said,
        (Mat 27:42 KJV)  He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he
be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will
believe him.
        (Mat 27:43 KJV)  He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if
he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.
        (Mat 27:44 KJV)  The thieves also, which were crucified with
him, cast the same in his teeth.
         
        as opposed to:
         
        (Luke 23:39 KJV)  And one of the malefactors which were hanged
railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
        (Luke 23:40 KJV)  But the other answering rebuked him, saying,
Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
        (Luke 23:41 KJV)  And we indeed justly; for we receive the due
reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
        (Luke 23:42 KJV)  And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when
thou comest into thy kingdom.
        (Luke 23:43 KJV)  And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto
thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
         
        As for your, "It is an arguement that does not contradict the
point he is trying to contradict," what can I (or anyone else) say?!
Your arguement seems to be a better choice in making Philips point, but
his original still does not. However, I will study this particular one
and see if I can give a satisfactiory answer within Allens' framework. I
can give one answer without looking into it; the account of the theives
speaking is not contradictory if one thief spoke one way and then
changed his mind and then spoke the other way. You may think that's too
much private interpritation but that's just off the top of my head. It
is a simple way of reading the verses that satisfy's the verses so they
do not contradict and requires only very simple logic. If two people
wrote an account of some moment of anothers life and one said "he took
the lords name in vain" and the other wrote that he "spok e well of the
lord" could both statements be true? Well yes, I've heard a godly man
say something he shouldn't in a moment of pain or anger right after or
before saying something good.
         


        "Dr. Neville Jones" <ntj005@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: 

                j a <ja_777_aj@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: 

                        My responces are in red
                         
                        Philip has stated the point well regarding Bible
interpretation, so I don't see a reason to add to that . His position is
the same as any atheist or liberal christian. That the bible is too
contradictory. The atheist uses that to say it isn't true. The Liberal
uses it to excuse whatever he already wants to believe. (pardon me for
using the "liberal" word but I needed some descriptor for what I was
saying.) Yes, it is true that someting difficult may need research like
reading other verses or looking up definitions for words in original
languages or perhaps some othe rmethod. But Phillips point of trying to
determine who "they" were is moot. It is an arguement that does not
contradict the point he is trying to contradict. If the verse does not
say who they are than it doesn't say. If some other scripture elsewhere
in the bible describes the same event and says who they are, than it do
es. What is so difficult about that? How does that violate reading the
scriptures as plainly as possibly?
                         
                        Sorry, ja, but you are mistaken on many fronts
here. It is certainly not a "moot" point, it is an extremely important
point. Who exactly was Yeshuwa' asking his Father to forgive? You have
to have knowledge of the meaning of the true scriptures, reasoning power
and Holy Spirit in order to answer this essential question.
                         
                        You also need to address the issue of why you
have the "Bible" on your bookshelf in the form that it is in. Who
decided which books to include and which to exclude, particularly from
the so-called "New Testament"? You will find that, as Nick and Philip
will rightly tell you, it was the Roman Catholic Church. Their argument
would then be, if the Catholic church was commissioned to decide which
books should be there, it seems reasonable to presume that it would also
be given the wisdom to interpret the scriptures contained therein. This
aspect of Nick's argument is completely bona fide, in my opinion, and
you would need to seriously address it.
                         
                        You also need to ask yourself why scripture
appears contradictory, which it most certainly does. Do not call me
either an atheist or a "liberal," but rather examine the evidence for
yourself. As a simple example, consider the following:
                         
                        (Mat 27:38 KJV)  Then were there two thieves
crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.
                        (Mat 27:39 KJV)  And they that passed by reviled
him, wagging their heads,
                        (Mat 27:40 KJV)  And saying, Thou that
destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If
thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.
                        (Mat 27:41 KJV)  Likewise also the chief priests
mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,
                        (Mat 27:42 KJV)  He saved others; himself he
cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the
cross, and we will believe him.
                        (Mat 27:43 KJV)  He trusted in God; let him
deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.
                        (Mat 27:44 KJV)  The thieves also, which were
crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.
                         
                        as opposed to:
                         
                        (Luke 23:39 KJV)  And one of the malefactors
which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself
and us.
                        (Luke 23:40 KJV)  But the other answering
rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same
condemnation?
                        (Luke 23:41 KJV)  And we indeed justly; for we
receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing
amiss.
                        (Luke 23:42 KJV)  And he said unto Jesus, Lord,
remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
                        (Luke 23:43 KJV)  And Jesus said unto him,
Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
                         
                        As for your, "It is an arguement that does not
contradict the point he is trying to contradict," what can I (or anyone
else) say?!
                         
                        Neville.

                
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