[geocentrism] Re: Saul of Tarsus.. Nick & Dan

  • From: "Niemann, Nicholas K." <NNiemann@xxxxxxxx>
  • To: <geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:53:11 -0500

 
Allen,
Please continue the debate with Dan.  My only suggestion was to read the
reference I mentioned.  I don't want to get into an endless slinging of
Bible verses, especially when it's been so well covered elsewhere.  I've
read the non-Catholic position posited by non-Catholics.  Have you read
the Catholic position posited by Catholics.  If not, I suggest you
balance your reading before reaching a conclusion, if you truly are
interested in the Truth.
 
I will comment though on your assumption about Scripture.  You mention
that Scripture defines itself, correlates its meaning, can be easily
understood without reading into the text and requires nothing more than
acceptance of plain text...etc.  
 
My question is, where in Scripture does Scripture give you these
absolutes on how it is to be read.  Or have you developed something else
outside of Scripture to be able to make such statements (and if so, on
what authority).
 
Also, the fact that you need to go to such great lengths to prove your
rock  point seems to be self-contradictory as to the validity of your
methodology.
 
 
Regards,
Nick.
 

  _____  

From: Allen Daves [mailto:allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 5:39 PM
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Saul of Tarsus.. Nick & Dan


Nick, I accept your response to mine and Dan's invitation for this
discussion. However, I would like to use this opportunity to address the
REAL issue "How  and how not to address/use scripture".......I am not
trying to draw you out here but Dan already accepts the Premises that
Peter was not the rock then this example will be the most strait forward
for me to make to him.

Dan, Please hear me out.....Your premise that Peter was not the rock is
correct! ..However, the method of argument in your posting for reaching
that conclusion is based on similar methodology  that is used to
maintain that Peter was the rock.....Namely it is a philosophical
argument  or methodology(Interpretative of the scriptures that you use
to make the argument)....This is the same methodology used in all the
previous debates......Scripture defines itself! It will correlates its
meaning with itself! It can be easily understood without reading into
the text or its meaning, it requires nothing more than acceptance of
plain text external of anyone's interpretation or Ideas or Reasoning!
..Let me demonstrate this with the "Peter and the Rock" issue. First
note the context of OT & NT STATMENTS...in all cases it is
SALVATION,ROCK, STONE, AND THE WORK OF GOD.

Deuteronomy32: 3. For I proclaim the name of the Lord: ascribe greatness
to our God. 4. He is the Rock, His work is perfect; for all His ways are
justice, a God of truth and without injustice; righteous and upright is
He............ 15. "But Jeshurun grew fat and kicked; you grew fat, you
grew thick, you are covered with fat; then he forsook God who made him,
and scornfully esteemed the Rock of his salvation.......... 18. Of the
Rock who begot you, you are unmindful, and have forgotten the God who
fathered you.........

2Samuel 22: 47. "The Lord lives! Blessed be my Rock! Let God be exalted,
the Rock of my salvation!

2 Samuel 23:3. The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spoke to me:
`He who rules over men must be just,

Psalms 62:7. In God is my salvation and my glory; The rock of my
strength, And my refuge, is in God.

Psalms 89:26. He shall cry to Me, `You are my Father, My God, and the
rock of my salvation.'

Psalms 94:22. But the Lord has been my defense, And my God the rock of
my refuge.

Psalms 95: 1. Oh come, let us sing to the Lord! Let us shout joyfully to
the Rock of our salvation.

Acts 12:12. "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other
name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.''

Isaiah 17:10. Because you have forgotten the God of your salvation, and
have not been mindful of the Rock of your stronghold, therefore you will
plant pleasant plants and set out foreign seedlings;

Isaiah 8:14. He will be as a sanctuary, but a stone of stumbling and a
rock of offense to both the houses of Israel, as a trap and a snare to
the inhabitants of Jerusalem. 15. And many among them shall stumble;
they shall fall and be broken, be snared and taken.''

Palms 118:21. I will praise You, For You have answered me, And have
become my salvation. 22. The stone which the builders rejected Has
become the chief cornerstone. 23.This was the Lord's doing; It is
marvelous in our eyes.

Mathew 21:42. Jesus said to them, "Did you never read in the Scriptures:
`The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes'? 43.
"Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and
given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.

Matthew 7:21. ..........24. "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of
Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house
on the rock: .... 28. And so it was, when Jesus had ended these sayings,
that the people were astonished at His teaching,

1Peter 2:4. Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men,
but chosen by God and precious, 5. you also, as living stones, are being
built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual
sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6. Therefore it is
also contained in the Scripture, "Behold, I lay in Zion a chief
cornerstone, elect, precious, and he who believes on Him will by no
means be put to shame.'' 7. Therefore, to you who believe, He is
precious; but to those who are disobedient, "The stone which the
builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone,'' 8. and "A stone of
stumbling and a rock of offense.'' They stumble, being disobedient to
the w ord, to which they also were appointed. 9. But you are a chosen
generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people,
that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness
into His marvelous light;

Acts 4:8. Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, "Rulers
of the people and elders of Israel: 9. "If we this day are judged for a
good deed done to the helpless man, by what means he has been made well,
10. "let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that
by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God
raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11.
"THIS IS THE STONE which was rejected by you builders, which has become
the chief cornerstone.' 12. "Nor is there salvation in any other, for
there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be
saved.''

1 Corinthians 10:4. and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they
drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was
Christ.

The correlation's between all these verse is SALVATION and ROCK & STONE.

......... People who think Jesus is calling Peter the rock miss the
whole context of all of scripture........The name Peter means piece of
stone but the whole context of scripture is the Rock that God is
supplying Jesus remarks are THOU (Peter)and THIS Stone or Rock(JESUS)..
this is why Jesus makes these remarks with Peter.

Mathew 16:18. "And I also say to you that YOU are Peter, and on THIS
rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail
against it. 19. "And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven,
and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you
loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.''

This argument is not philosophical or interpritive. I show from the OT
and NT Who is THE rock and Stone are. The context of all of these
discussions is Salvation which  comes from the Rock or stone ...spoken
of by the L&P as God/Jesus. Peter is given the keys to the Kingdom that
is built on THE ROCK that is GOD and JESUS (in whom is the ONLY
salvation). Again scripture provides context and correlation's with
itself that need no interpretation just acceptance of those
correlation's, plain text and context. In fact in order to assert that
Peter is the rock one must ignore all the correlation's, context and
plain blunt scripture... This is why we are told not to think beyond
what is written!


Dan <danchap9@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

        Was Peter the Rock???
         

        THE TRUE CHURCH.

         

         

         

        Mathew chapter 16 verses 13 to 18: 

         

        "When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked
his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And
they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and
others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But whom
say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the
Christ, the Son of the living God.  And Jesus answered and said unto
him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not
revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also
unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my
church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." 

         

        Notice first of all Jesus asks his disciples whom do men say
that I the Son of man am? Because of various prophecies in the Old
Testament they came to the conclusion that Jesus was the fulfilment of
one of these. In verse 15 he makes it personal to his disciples and you
can make it personal to yourselves right now. But whom say ye that I am?
He has already told them who he is by saying I Am which is the name that
God gave to Moses in reply to who shall I say sent me when Moses
returned from Mount Sinai.

         

        Exodus 3:13 to15: 

         

        "And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children
of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me
unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? What shall I say
unto them And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus
shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you
And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children
of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of
Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name
forever, and this is my memorial unto all generations."  

         

        So this was God in the flesh standing before them. Simon Peter
in verse 16 Simon in Hebrew means he who harkens or listens. And Peter
means rock as in a solid stone. But later on in the verse Jesus
addresses Simon Peter as Simon Barjona. Very interesting as we know
names all have hidden meanings in Hebrew. Here Simon means he who
harkens or listens and Barjona means son of Jona. Jona means dove. The
dove is symbolic of the Holy Spirit. So Jesus is saying here blessed are
you who listen to the Holy Spirit, for flesh and blood has not revealed
it to you but my father in heaven. Now flesh and blood or man has not
revealed it to you means indoctrination of men you s ee man can teach
this day and night in the flesh and get nowhere but when God himself
through the Holy Spirit speaks directly into the innermost being of a
person that's Revelation. 

         

        John 16verse 13: 

         

        " Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide
you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he
shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."  

         

        That's what we all need because without that the bible is
absolutely meaningless to the carnal mind. Verse 18 is the key to the
true foundation that the Holy Spirit would like to lay in your inner
most being right now if you have the ears to hear. The rock is the
revelation that not man but my father in heaven has shown you. Peter
means a stone or solid rock. But this is not speaking of a solid
foundation. Anything built in this physical realm is only temporal. This
is speaking of a spiritual foundation. The Lord Jesus Christ. 

         

         I Corinthians chapter 3 verses 10 to 13:

         

        "According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise
master builder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth
thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For
other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus
Christ." 

         

        You cannot build a foundation on faith or prosperity or revival
or healing etc. Who heals who prospers who revives who gives faith? 

         

        Hebrews chapter 12 verse 2:  

         

        "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who
for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the
shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." 

         

         And on that revelation I will build my church. The word church
means to "call out or to call forth." It is not a building made with
hands. It's a people called out and set apart by God. Now the doctrines
of men will take this solid rock and put a solid building made with the
hands of man on it. The building is not the church but the building is
where the church meets. Jesus didn't talk about it as a place to go to,
but a way of living in relationship to him and to other followers of
his. Asking us where we go to church is like asking us where we go to be
us. How do we answer that? We are us and where we go there we are.
'Church' is that kind of word. It doesn't identify a location or an
institution or a denomination. It describes a people and how they relate
to each other. 

         

        Luke chapter 17 verse 20 and 21:  

         

        "And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of
God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh
not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! Or, lo there!
For, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."  

         

        If we lose sight of that, our understanding of the true church a
called out people will be distorted.  So with this simple understanding
lets take a closer look at verse 18. Blessed are you who listens to the
spirit of God for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you but my
father in heaven and on that revelation I will call out my people. And
the gates of hell will not come against it (them). 

         

        1 Corinthians chapter 3 verse 10 to 11:

         

         "According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a
Wise master builder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth
thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For
other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus
Christ."  

         

         Jesus Christ is the spiritual foundation. Before we build a
house in the natural we have to make sure that the foundation is deep
and strong enough to support it. So it is in the spiritual.

         

        Galatians chapter 3 verse 28:

         

        "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free,
there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

         

        Now this is a very interesting verse. If you are a Jew reading
this you have to leave your Jewish religion and move into Christ. If you
are a gentile reading this you have to leave your Gentile religion and
move into Christ. Think about how many Gentile religions there are and
how many false Christ's there are. Not easy if you are deceived by one
of them. If you think that was a bit harsh   what about "neither male
nor female." Surely that counts us all out? Consider this, the bible
talks about us being Sons of God and new creatures.& lt; /P> 

         

        2 Corinthians chapter 5 verse 17:

         

        "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old
things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." 

         

        So the new creature in Christ is not a Jew or a gentile. They
are neither male nor female but we are all one in Christ. 

                    The bible also says that we are God's body on the
earth.

         

        There is a counterfeit church out there and in the book of
Revelation she is called a prostitute or Harlot.

         

        Revelation chapter 17 verses 3 to 6:

         

        "So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I
saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of
blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.  And the woman was arrayed
in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones
and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and
filthiness of her fornication: And upon her forehead was a name written,
MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF
THE EARTH. And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and
with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered
with great admiration." 

         

        The Beast is the coming One World Government and the Woman is
the counterfeit church. Think about it a prostitute sleeps around
committing adultery and takes all your money then leaves you for dead. A
true bride keeps herself pure and clean for her husband. 

         

        2 Corinthians chapter 6 verses 17 to 17: 

         

        "Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith
the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And
will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith
the Lord Almighty." 

         

         Dan.

         



        "Niemann, Nicholas K." <NNiemann@xxxxxxxx> wrote:

                 
                Allen,
                I've seen what good (or lack thereof) the Bible verse
slinging does on this forum.  If you want a Biblical basis for Peter as
the rock, read Denzinger.  I'm not going to write a book for you when
it's already been done.  Denzinger is a compilation that has already
been done.  Read it, rather than just responding that "there is none".  
                 
                Regards,
                Nick.
                 

  _____  

                From: Allen Daves [mailto:allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx] 
                Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 4:22 PM
                To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
                Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Saul of Tarsus.. Nick
                
                
                I have the history and Scripture.....My point was is
that there is none........ The whole basses for such is on the premise
on peter being the rock that the church was built on.



        
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