[geocentrism] Re: Saul of Tarsus.. Nick & Dan
- From: Allen Daves <allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 20:20:42 -0700 (PDT)
I will point out in this little love feast of ambiguity and willful
uncertainty, that the things I have been discussing do not differentiate from
text to text to any meaningful degree, if the context and use of all scriptures
are applied?..Yes, why do that???.? I have quoted Plain statements that have
the same force in any text used thus far, correlated with other plain
statements from the L&P and Jesus. I have shown how Jesus uses the same
statements and or Ideas.. This does not change from any of the text used here
from text to text??.Where there has been question in all cases I refereed to
scripture and context or scripture to id, define or clarify and if any "better"
translations, if there is such? which can all be done from the text themselves.
In all case the same meaning can be attained from all of these different
versions by simple application of the context of all the scriptures in these
versions. This attempt at textual ambiguity will not withstand textual scrutiny,
as no
other meaning than what was pointed out can be attained from these versions
without an inconstant use and out right ignoring your own text! In any case you
are straining a gnat while trying to justify swallowing the Camel by ignoring
the obvious. Further, no mater what version you use, if you ignore plain
statements and correlation?s from the text to itself what difference does it
make anyway and since there is no other authority established, just what is
your point anyway???
"Niemann, Nicholas K." <NNiemann@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
JA,
Just one comment, rather than taking on everything.
You say you are "no scholar" but your "take" is that what was to be in the
Bible "was pretty well sorted out before the roman catholics put there stamp on
it." Does "pretty well sorted out" mean "completely sorted out".
No, it doesn't. Aside from why it was even pretty well sorted up to then, who
finished the job---which you clearly acknowledge someone must have done.
Realize that the final determination would be critical--since letting in even a
small error could be disastrous.
Do you see what your caveat reveals about you?
Regards,
Nick.
---------------------------------
From: j a [mailto:ja_777_aj@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 4:18 PM
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Saul of Tarsus.. Nick & Dan
Sorry, ja, but you are mistaken on many fronts here. It is certainly not a
"moot" point, it is an extremely important point. Who exactly was Yeshuwa'
asking his Father to forgive? You have to have knowledge of the meaning of the
true scriptures, reasoning power and Holy Spirit in order to answer this
essential question. I agree with your last statement. But if a scripture does
not say something than asking why it doesn't does not prove the point Philip is
trying to make. It may mean research & study, but it does not mean that the
truth can't be found or that special revelation is needed or that it is a
matter of interpritation.
You also need to address the issue of why you have the "Bible" on your
bookshelf in the form that it is in. Who decided which books to include and
which to exclude, particularly from the so-called "New Testament"? You will
find that, as Nick and Philip will rightly tell you, it was the Roman Catholic
Church. Their argument would then be, if the Catholic church was commissioned
to decide which books should be there, it seems reasonable to presume that it
would also be given the wisdom to interpret the scriptures contained therein.
This aspect of Nick's argument is completely bona fide, in my opinion, and you
would need to seriously address it. I am no scholar in this area but my take on
this is that is was pretty well sorted out before the roman catholics put there
stamp on it. God's purpose always takes place even under the noses of those
gathering to oppose him. I mean I'm sure satan was real happy and working hard
to ensure Christ's crucifiction, but look what happened beca
use of
it. Just because the catholic church takes authority it doesn't have or takes
positons which are unbiblical doesn't mean that any accomplishment of thier's
is invalid nor that those involved are unsaved.
You also need to ask yourself why scripture appears contradictory, which it
most certainly does. Do not call me either an atheist or a "liberal," but
rather examine the evidence for yourself. As a simple example, consider the
following: There are hundereds, maybe thousands of such things you could quote
which seem contradictory. I could spend alot of time researching the answers
for you as I used to do when I was evaluating such arguements against the
bible. Everyone I ever researched was answered and still fell within the
framework that Allen presented for you in understanding scripture.
(Mat 27:38 KJV) Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the
right hand, and another on the left.
(Mat 27:39 KJV) And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads,
(Mat 27:40 KJV) And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it
in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the
cross.
(Mat 27:41 KJV) Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes
and elders, said,
(Mat 27:42 KJV) He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of
Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.
(Mat 27:43 KJV) He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have
him: for he said, I am the Son of God.
(Mat 27:44 KJV) The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same
in his teeth.
as opposed to:
(Luke 23:39 KJV) And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him,
saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
(Luke 23:40 KJV) But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou
fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
(Luke 23:41 KJV) And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our
deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
(Luke 23:42 KJV) And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest
into thy kingdom.
(Luke 23:43 KJV) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt
thou be with me in paradise.
As for your, "It is an arguement that does not contradict the point he is
trying to contradict," what can I (or anyone else) say?! Your arguement seems
to be a better choice in making Philips point, but his original still does not.
However, I will study this particular one and see if I can give a satisfactiory
answer within Allens' framework. I can give one answer without looking into it;
the account of the theives speaking is not contradictory if one thief spoke one
way and then changed his mind and then spoke the other way. You may think
that's too much private interpritation but that's just off the top of my head.
It is a simple way of reading the verses that satisfy's the verses so they do
not contradict and requires only very simple logic. If two people wrote an
account of some moment of anothers life and one said "he took the lords name in
vain" and the other wrote that he "spok e well of the lord" could both
statements be true? Well yes, I've heard a godly man say some
thing he
shouldn't in a moment of pain or anger right after or before saying something
good.
"Dr. Neville Jones" <ntj005@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: j a <ja_777_aj@xxxxxxxxx>
wrote: My responces are in red
Philip has stated the point well regarding Bible interpretation, so I don't see
a reason to add to that . His position is the same as any atheist or liberal
christian. That the bible is too contradictory. The atheist uses that to say it
isn't true. The Liberal uses it to excuse whatever he already wants to believe.
(pardon me for using the "liberal" word but I needed some descriptor for what I
was saying.) Yes, it is true that someting difficult may need research like
reading other verses or looking up definitions for words in original languages
or perhaps some othe rmethod. But Phillips point of trying to determine who
"they" were is moot. It is an arguement that does not contradict the point he
is trying to contradict. If the verse does not say who they are than it doesn't
say. If some other scripture elsewhere in the bible describes the same event
and says who they are, than it do es. What is so difficult about that? How does
that violate reading the scriptures as plainly
as
possibly?
Sorry, ja, but you are mistaken on many fronts here. It is certainly not a
"moot" point, it is an extremely important point. Who exactly was Yeshuwa'
asking his Father to forgive? You have to have knowledge of the meaning of the
true scriptures, reasoning power and Holy Spirit in order to answer this
essential question.
You also need to address the issue of why you have the "Bible" on your
bookshelf in the form that it is in. Who decided which books to include and
which to exclude, particularly from the so-called "New Testament"? You will
find that, as Nick and Philip will rightly tell you, it was the Roman Catholic
Church. Their argument would then be, if the Catholic church was commissioned
to decide which books should be there, it seems reasonable to presume that it
would also be given the wisdom to interpret the scriptures contained therein.
This aspect of Nick's argument is completely bona fide, in my opinion, and you
would need to seriously address it.
You also need to ask yourself why scripture appears contradictory, which it
most certainly does. Do not call me either an atheist or a "liberal," but
rather examine the evidence for yourself. As a simple example, consider the
following:
(Mat 27:38 KJV) Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the
right hand, and another on the left.
(Mat 27:39 KJV) And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads,
(Mat 27:40 KJV) And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it
in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the
cross.
(Mat 27:41 KJV) Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes
and elders, said,
(Mat 27:42 KJV) He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of
Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.
(Mat 27:43 KJV) He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have
him: for he said, I am the Son of God.
(Mat 27:44 KJV) The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same
in his teeth.
as opposed to:
(Luke 23:39 KJV) And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him,
saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
(Luke 23:40 KJV) But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou
fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
(Luke 23:41 KJV) And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our
deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
(Luke 23:42 KJV) And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest
into thy kingdom.
(Luke 23:43 KJV) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt
thou be with me in paradise.
As for your, "It is an arguement that does not contradict the point he is
trying to contradict," what can I (or anyone else) say?!
Neville.
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