[opendtv] Re: 1080p @ 60 is Next?

  • From: "Hoffmann, Hans" <hoffmann@xxxxxx>
  • To: <opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 14:55:19 +0200

Craig,

without having scientific data, but my feeling would say 720p has it end
(compared to 1080p/50) with 1920x1080 displays around 65 inch. How many of
the population will have such sizes in their homes?

Regards,

Hans 


> -----Original Message-----
> From: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Craig Birkmaier
> Sent: 11 May 2007 14:00
> To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [opendtv] Re: 1080p @ 60 is Next?
> 
> 
> At 10:36 PM +0200 5/10/07, Olivier Houot wrote:
> >Those relatively small flat screens used in the EBU tests may be
> >very trendy, but any self-respecting HD geek would only contemplate 
> >a picture with at least a 2.5 meter base.
> >
> >
> >Also, consider that some "live" events might be retransmitted in
> >digital theaters on a cinema-sized screen.
> >
> >
> >I understand it would have been difficult to set up a demo with
> >three 10 meters wide screens, but at least 2 x 2.5 m above one 
> >another could have been considered.
> >
> >
> >Big screens would be more revealing of resolution deficiencies, and
> >the conclusions would have offered some security margins when 
> >applied to smaller ones.
> 
> I seriously doubt the results would have been much different, EXCEPT 
> for the uncompressed comparisons. Big Screens also make it much 
> easier to see the compression artifacts, which would make the 
> advantages of 720p emission even more noticeable.
> 
> But Olivier does raise an important issue. The resolution of the 
> display IS important as the screen size increases, and there is a 
> point where 1080P (or higher) will show an advantage or 720P as a 
> display format. We have discussed this many times over the years. 
> Bottom line, the point where 1080P display becomes important - 
> assuming the same viewing distance measured in picture heights - is 
> somewhere in the range of 70 inch to 100 inch diagonal, depending on 
> the visual acuity of the viewer.
> 
> Or another way to state this, display oversampling  can be a good 
> thing, but only in a narrow range of applications. For example, a 70 
> inch 1080P display may produce visibly superior results to a 70 inch 
> 720P display, but there will be no visible difference at normal 
> viewing distances between a 40 inch 1080p display and a 40 inch 720P 
> display.
> 
> >
> >I don't think the choice of the more appropriate standard should be
> >based on the present market trends, especially in an industry where 
> >things can change so quickly.
> 
> True. We are now in a digital world where acquisition, transmission 
> and display are decoupled. It is easy to understand and to project 
> that we will keep seeing improvements on the acquisition side of the 
> equation, including 1080@60P cameras and production.
> 
> It is far less clear that there are any advantages to 1080@60P 
> emission. Actually just the opposite appears to be true based on the 
> EBU tests. As I have said MANY TIMES BEFORE, what is important in 
> emission is the delivered quality of the samples. As long as we are 
> dealing with progressive rasters, up and down conversions are 
> relatively simple and the quality can be very good. The introduction 
> of interlace is a major problem for both the acquisition/production 
> and transmission components of the chain. Interlacing at the display 
> is a cheap and easy cost reduction technique, and may persist as long 
> as we are building boxes to feed legacy interlaced displays.
> 
> >
> >Watching a 1.27 m screen (diagonal), even in high definition, does
> >not fundamuntally change the TV experience. With a 2.5 m screen 
> >(width), it really begins to fell like you're at the movies.
> 
> YUP. HD has more to do with screen size than delivered resolution. 
> NTSC delivers a very sharp picture on the 19" display for which it 
> was designed.
> 
> >
> >
> >A sizeable fraction of the early HD adopters have opted for a big
> >picture (which means front projectors at the moment), and EBU should 
> >not make a choice that would clearly expose limitations in such 
> >viewing conditions.
> 
> They did not. Emisiion and display are decoupled. Enlarging any image 
> via projection is going to make the flaws more visible. From personal 
> experience, corroborated by the EBU study, it is the artifacts of 
> compression that are the primary determinant of delivered image 
> quality. Feel free to blow them up to any size you want. After you 
> see the results you will better understand why a nearly artifact free 
> 720P encoding is superior to an artifact riddled 1080P emission.
> 
> >
> >
> >Perhaps the final conclusions would not be very different, but at
> >least the test should be made.
> 
> I believe that such a test would only help to confirm the work that 
> Hans and the EBU have done.
> 
> Regards
> Craig
>  
>  
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