[SI-LIST] Re: decoupling
- From: "Mark Alexander" <Mark.Alexander@xxxxxxxxxx>
- To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 11:53:15 -0600
Ken,
I've played around with your equation below, but I'm having trouble getting
anything meaningful out of it. Did this come from a book somewhere that has an
explanation, or is this your own? If it's the latter, do you have a derivation?
A couple of specific questions:
is 'powersupply' your VCC voltage?
where did 0.02 come from? Is this 5% variation divided by 2?
Thanks a lot,
mark
Ken Cantrell wrote:
> I use Ztarget = (powersupply*0.02)/di/dt, and have stopped using COGs (ESL
> too high)all together. I use multiple X7Rs to push the frequency out (ala
> the great, but humble....Doug Brooks). Another plug for Doug. If you
> haven't purchased Doug's little software pak (cheeeap!), do it. A real eye
> opener. Shows the (theoretical) effect of high ESL caps very nicely.
> I haven't had a chance to measure these effects yet (increased emissions,
> discontinuity reflections). Kind of like taking your Mecedes on the Baja
> run. Larry(or anyone), have you had the chance to do so yet?
> Ken
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Khalid Ansari
> Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 10:19 AM
> To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: decoupling
>
> Larry,
>
> What happens much above 250 MHz, do we need any more
> capacitors or is the power to ground plane capacitance
> sufficient?
>
> >470 pF 232 MHz
> >0.01 uF 50 MHz
> >0.1 uF 16 MHz
>
> >Putting low ESR capacitors in parallel is like playing with fire. You
> >can cook with fire and heat your house, but if you are not careful with
> >fire, you will get burned. I am a strong advocate of multiple low ESR
> >capacitors in parallel because I believe we have learned how to make
> >good, safe use of them. The optimum power distribution system (fewest
> >components, least cost, least complexity) is obtained from careful
> >selection and placement of capacitors with a reasonably high Q (low ESR).
> >
> >The trick is to create a low and flat impedance profile in the
> >frequency domain by using different valued capacitors in parallel.
> >Systems behave best when chips look out and see a power distribution
> >system that is resistive in phase (flat impedance). We like to
> >establish a target impedance which is defined as
> >
> >
> >Ztarget = power_supply_voltage * 5% / transient_current.
> >
> >If your PDS impedance meets the target impedance up to the highest
> >frequency of interest, your noise will be within acceptable limits.
> >Much more is written on this topic in
> >
> >"Power Distribution System Design Methodology and Capacitor
> >Selection for Modern CMOS Technology"
> >
> >http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu/si_documents/docs.html
> >
> >It is easy to meet a 1 Ohm or 0.1 Ohm target impedance using "rules of
> >thumb" for decoupling and high ESR capacitors. It becomes a little
> >more difficult to meet a 10 mOhm target. If you are trying to meet 1
> >mOhm target impedance up to several hundred MHz, it will be very
> >difficult unless you have a well defined methodology and some software
> >tools to help you. On some of our more recent products, at least one
> >of each of the ceramic capacitors from the following menu are used:
> >
> >100uF,
> >47uF, 22uF, 10uF,
> >4.7uF, 2.2uF, 1uF,
> >470nF, 220nF, 100nF,
> >47nF, 22nF, 10nF,
> >4.7nF, 2.2nF, 1nF,
> >680pF, 470pF, 330pF, 220pF, 150pF, 100pF
> >
> >With three capacitors per decade of capacitance, it is possible to make
> >a flat impedance vs frequency profile from about 200 kHz to 400 MHz
> >without any problem from parallel antiresonances. The lower the ESL
> >and ESR (within reason), the fewer components you need. X7R capacitors
> >tend to have Q's between 2 and 5 and three values per decade are
> >sufficient. NPO (COG) capacitors may have Q's between 5 and 10 and six
> >values per decade are useful. Closely spaced power planes may be used
> >instead of some of the pF capacitors.
> >
> >We have our own internal software tools to help manage the design.
> >Cadence is marketing the Power Delivery Tool under SpectraQuest that
> >does the same thing as our tools. The Cadence tool is even better
> >because it is hooked up to the design data base for the PCB.
> >
> >Like all SI tools, these tools are based on models and the analysis is
> >only as good as the models. These days, I spend half of my life out in
> >the lab measuring capacitors and reducing the measured data. The
> >capacitor vendors could help me greatly by measuring the ESR and ESL of
> >their capacitors and publishing the data. They could also help by
> >designing capacitors that have the absolute minimum internal
> >inductance. BTW, traditional measurement techniques do not obtain very
> >good values for ESR and ESL. (Maybe that should be the topic of
> >another email.)
> >
> >regards,
> >Larry Smith
> >Sun Microsystems
>
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