Re: Is Visual C++ Accessible - Was: C++ and I are getting divorced.

  • From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 09:18:52 -0600

I could also help with the repo, or the scripting. I'm not great with jaws scripting, but I'd like to help out where possible. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>

To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 9:08 AM
Subject: RE: Is Visual C++ Accessible - Was: C++ and I are getting divorced.


What Sina says here is true.  Back when 2005 was out everyone on this list
was bitching it was not very easy to make dialogs and they couldn't read the
text box good and the grid control didn't work.  There was two people
working on scripts but they were too busy at the time to finish. So I took what they had done wrote about 100 maybe 200 lines of code and made all the
complaints start going away.  Then Jamal like an demon coder from hell
jumped on it and the scripts we have today were born. I have said all that
to say we can spend hours writing bitches to this list or we can start
writing com interfaces to Window-eyes and Scripts for Jaws.  The other
screen readers will have to do whatever they do but for those of us with
those two screen readers who can code better put up or shut up.  Microsoft
has given us tools we can use and if each one of us wrote a function to make
something accessible in the IDE's they would be accessible in no time.  I
have been thinking of making a git repository of the current Jaws scripts
and letting people have write access to it. If that is something people are
interested in we can go down that road.  Heck I am not a window-eyes user
but I would host a site to hold visual studio scripts for it.

Ken

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Sina Bahram
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 7:01 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: 'Andreas Stefik'
Subject: RE: Is Visual C++ Accessible - Was: C++ and I are getting divorced.

Well, it's not only UIA which is underutilized.

There is a virtual plethora of information, both semantically contextual,
and also absolutely referenceable, all of which is
available via their com object into the IDE itself.

For example, not only can one perform analysis of a code file based on
primitives such as object level traversal of functional
blocks, but one can also loop through constructs such as the characters of a
line of code, through the properties of whom one can
learn about highlighted errors, debug break points, etc, etc.

Heck, one example I coded up back in VS2005 was the idea that you could code
something up in notepad, then export it to VS2005,
programmatically, via jaws script, for compilation, error checking, and so
on.

I don't' remember all the specifics, but what I do remember is that it
leaned towards the trivial, not the complex, and this was
before the even more extravagant expansion of said com object in vs2008 and
2010.

I mention such things in response to your email to point out that the
follow up really needs to be from us, the community. We need
to take advantage and harness the actual power provided by this API, com
object, whatever you want to refer to it as, to facilitate
a rather immersive accessible, and what's more: usable, programming
experience for the blind/VI developer.

With respect to your specific question about follow-up on their part. I
remember them following up on our comments regarding the
html creation and web application development issues of vs2008. they were
internally disappointed with the level of accessibility
there. Most inevitably due to their rather successful presentation of a
valid interaction model in other parts of the IDE. This is
something that I believe got severely overhauled in 2008 and then further in
2010 because of architectural issues as well as
usability ones in .net 3.0, and then later on, 4.0. I must admit that when I
think web app development, I tend towards the java
applications, Perl scripts, php pages, and similar light weight development
practices of our trade; however, I do know some
successful asp.net programmers; thus, I am lead to believe the situation has
actually improved since 2005.

As far as obstacles. Honestly, they were not really conceptual, although
they did have some best practices questions for us, as well
as some strategy based dilemmas they were interested in solving. I'll
flatter Ken, and in a smaller part myself, by saying that we
were able to help out, but I have every confidence they would have arrived
at decent solutions on their own to such investigations.
Instead, their obstacles were those real world complexities of product
delivery cycles, allocation of appropriate resources, lacking
of course the most important one of time, and similar inconveniences that
lead software a stray for all the right reasons but in all
the wrong ways.

I think, to some part, this has been addressed by the recent reorganization
of certain groups within MS, but let's be realistic,
such things are unavoidable in a project of that size and complexity.

With respect to continuing a dialog, I would say that they were more than
open. We followed up with them several times on our own
issues, but they were also down right interested in systemic accessibility
concerns.

Aaron, whose last name I don't recall right now, introduced me to several of
the team members who worked for him, and also some of
his colleagues. He's since moved on to bigger and better things, I think
within Microsoft, but I could be mistaken about that.

Take care,
Sina

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jamal Mazrui
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 6:21 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: Sina Bahram; 'Andreas Stefik'
Subject: Re: Is Visual C++ Accessible - Was: C++ and I are getting divorced.

I agree that UIA is sadly under utilized by screen readers.  I'm curious
-- to what extent did they follow up on your feedback and resolve problems?
What obstacles did they face?  What interest was there
in continuing a dialog?

Jamal

On 7/30/2010 6:09 AM, Sina Bahram wrote:
I know that MS is most likely aware of several of these issues. Due to
a project we were working on at the time, I was able to get us access
to some of the core developers and product managers of VS, and Ken and I
conducted a conference call with them back a couple of
years ago where we highlighted a lot of the fundamental accessibility
issues.

It's nice to see some of those concerns seriously addressed, both
systemically and also, in part, specifically, in VS 2010, but there is
a great deal of work to be done client side to take advantage of the
myriad of accessibility and rich semantic information that VS
offers; however, that no assistive technology actually bothers utilizing.

I won't speak for Ken, but I, at least, was definitely impressed with
their grasp of the relevant accessibility and usability issues, along with
their realistic approach to the situation.

Take care,
Sina

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jamal
Mazrui
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 5:33 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: Andreas Stefik
Subject: Re: Is Visual C++ Accessible - Was: C++ and I are getting
divorced.

Andreas,
By any chance, is there a report on this topic by your research team
that you can share?  It could be helpful in highlighting aspects of
VS2010 that need screen reader scripting.  It could also be conveyed to
Microsoft to help it understand problems that we are
encountering with this latest VS.

Jamal


On 7/28/2010 9:20 PM, Andreas Stefik wrote:
My research team just finished some usability testing with blind
children using visual studio 2010 and JAWS 11. The students were able
to use it to complete simple problems, but VS 2010 has a pretty large
laundry list of accessibility problems, in my opinion.

Stefik

On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 1:53 PM, Katherine Moss
<plymouthroamer285@xxxxxxxxx>   wrote:
I don't see how version 2010 is inaccessible though.  I was on my
desktop at home and I was placing buttons on a winform app as well
as setting their properties correctly.

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of The Elf
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 2:30 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Is Visual C++ Accessible - Was: C++ and I are getting
divorced.

VS 2005 and 2008 are both made accessible with the jaws scripts and
information available at my grab bag site (URL under my name)

and/or with information and/or tools available at non visual
development.org www.NonvisualDevelopment.org

and has been for years

HTH,
inthane
Moderator, Blind Access Help
Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
- own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
www.alacorncomputer.com
proprietor, The Grab Bag,
for blind computer users and programmers
http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Gallik"<BillGallik@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To:<programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 10:22 AM
Subject: Is Visual C++ Accessible - Was: C++ and I are getting divorced.


The last time I attempted to teach myself C++ in the Visual Studio
SDE I found it basically inaccessible.  Has there been a
significant progression

toward accessibility in the Visual Studio environment? It would
seem, judging from all the respondants to this thread -- that
Visual Studio has indeed become more screen reader friendly.  And, if
so, which version(s)?
----
Holland's Person, Bill
E-Mail: BillGallik@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
- The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the
cheese!
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