What Sina says here is true. Back when 2005 was out everyone on this list was bitching it was not very easy to make dialogs and they couldn't read the text box good and the grid control didn't work. There was two people working on scripts but they were too busy at the time to finish. So I took what they had done wrote about 100 maybe 200 lines of code and made all the complaints start going away. Then Jamal like an demon coder from hell jumped on it and the scripts we have today were born. I have said all that to say we can spend hours writing bitches to this list or we can start writing com interfaces to Window-eyes and Scripts for Jaws. The other screen readers will have to do whatever they do but for those of us with those two screen readers who can code better put up or shut up. Microsoft has given us tools we can use and if each one of us wrote a function to make something accessible in the IDE's they would be accessible in no time. I have been thinking of making a git repository of the current Jaws scripts and letting people have write access to it. If that is something people are interested in we can go down that road. Heck I am not a window-eyes user but I would host a site to hold visual studio scripts for it. Ken -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Sina Bahram Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 7:01 AM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Cc: 'Andreas Stefik' Subject: RE: Is Visual C++ Accessible - Was: C++ and I are getting divorced. Well, it's not only UIA which is underutilized. There is a virtual plethora of information, both semantically contextual, and also absolutely referenceable, all of which is available via their com object into the IDE itself. For example, not only can one perform analysis of a code file based on primitives such as object level traversal of functional blocks, but one can also loop through constructs such as the characters of a line of code, through the properties of whom one can learn about highlighted errors, debug break points, etc, etc. Heck, one example I coded up back in VS2005 was the idea that you could code something up in notepad, then export it to VS2005, programmatically, via jaws script, for compilation, error checking, and so on. I don't' remember all the specifics, but what I do remember is that it leaned towards the trivial, not the complex, and this was before the even more extravagant expansion of said com object in vs2008 and 2010. I mention such things in response to your email to point out that the follow up really needs to be from us, the community. We need to take advantage and harness the actual power provided by this API, com object, whatever you want to refer to it as, to facilitate a rather immersive accessible, and what's more: usable, programming experience for the blind/VI developer. With respect to your specific question about follow-up on their part. I remember them following up on our comments regarding the html creation and web application development issues of vs2008. they were internally disappointed with the level of accessibility there. Most inevitably due to their rather successful presentation of a valid interaction model in other parts of the IDE. This is something that I believe got severely overhauled in 2008 and then further in 2010 because of architectural issues as well as usability ones in .net 3.0, and then later on, 4.0. I must admit that when I think web app development, I tend towards the java applications, Perl scripts, php pages, and similar light weight development practices of our trade; however, I do know some successful asp.net programmers; thus, I am lead to believe the situation has actually improved since 2005. As far as obstacles. Honestly, they were not really conceptual, although they did have some best practices questions for us, as well as some strategy based dilemmas they were interested in solving. I'll flatter Ken, and in a smaller part myself, by saying that we were able to help out, but I have every confidence they would have arrived at decent solutions on their own to such investigations. Instead, their obstacles were those real world complexities of product delivery cycles, allocation of appropriate resources, lacking of course the most important one of time, and similar inconveniences that lead software a stray for all the right reasons but in all the wrong ways. I think, to some part, this has been addressed by the recent reorganization of certain groups within MS, but let's be realistic, such things are unavoidable in a project of that size and complexity. With respect to continuing a dialog, I would say that they were more than open. We followed up with them several times on our own issues, but they were also down right interested in systemic accessibility concerns. Aaron, whose last name I don't recall right now, introduced me to several of the team members who worked for him, and also some of his colleagues. He's since moved on to bigger and better things, I think within Microsoft, but I could be mistaken about that. Take care, Sina -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jamal Mazrui Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 6:21 AM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Cc: Sina Bahram; 'Andreas Stefik' Subject: Re: Is Visual C++ Accessible - Was: C++ and I are getting divorced. I agree that UIA is sadly under utilized by screen readers. I'm curious -- to what extent did they follow up on your feedback and resolve problems? What obstacles did they face? What interest was there in continuing a dialog? Jamal On 7/30/2010 6:09 AM, Sina Bahram wrote: > I know that MS is most likely aware of several of these issues. Due to > a project we were working on at the time, I was able to get us access > to some of the core developers and product managers of VS, and Ken and I conducted a conference call with them back a couple of years ago where we highlighted a lot of the fundamental accessibility issues. > > It's nice to see some of those concerns seriously addressed, both > systemically and also, in part, specifically, in VS 2010, but there is > a great deal of work to be done client side to take advantage of the myriad of accessibility and rich semantic information that VS offers; however, that no assistive technology actually bothers utilizing. > > I won't speak for Ken, but I, at least, was definitely impressed with > their grasp of the relevant accessibility and usability issues, along with their realistic approach to the situation. > > Take care, > Sina > > -----Original Message----- > From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jamal > Mazrui > Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 5:33 AM > To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Cc: Andreas Stefik > Subject: Re: Is Visual C++ Accessible - Was: C++ and I are getting divorced. > > Andreas, > By any chance, is there a report on this topic by your research team > that you can share? It could be helpful in highlighting aspects of > VS2010 that need screen reader scripting. It could also be conveyed to Microsoft to help it understand problems that we are encountering with this latest VS. > > Jamal > > > On 7/28/2010 9:20 PM, Andreas Stefik wrote: >> My research team just finished some usability testing with blind >> children using visual studio 2010 and JAWS 11. The students were able >> to use it to complete simple problems, but VS 2010 has a pretty large >> laundry list of accessibility problems, in my opinion. >> >> Stefik >> >> On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 1:53 PM, Katherine Moss >> <plymouthroamer285@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>> I don't see how version 2010 is inaccessible though. I was on my >>> desktop at home and I was placing buttons on a winform app as well >>> as setting their properties correctly. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of The Elf >>> Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 2:30 PM >>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> Subject: Re: Is Visual C++ Accessible - Was: C++ and I are getting divorced. >>> >>> VS 2005 and 2008 are both made accessible with the jaws scripts and >>> information available at my grab bag site (URL under my name) >>> >>> and/or with information and/or tools available at non visual >>> development.org www.NonvisualDevelopment.org >>> >>> and has been for years >>> >>> HTH, >>> inthane >>> Moderator, Blind Access Help >>> Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises >>> Specialists in customized computers and peripherals >>> - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn! >>> www.alacorncomputer.com >>> proprietor, The Grab Bag, >>> for blind computer users and programmers >>> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Bill Gallik"<BillGallik@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>> To:<programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>> Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 10:22 AM >>> Subject: Is Visual C++ Accessible - Was: C++ and I are getting divorced. >>> >>> >>>> The last time I attempted to teach myself C++ in the Visual Studio >>>> SDE I found it basically inaccessible. Has there been a >>>> significant progression >>> >>>> toward accessibility in the Visual Studio environment? It would >>>> seem, judging from all the respondants to this thread -- that >>>> Visual Studio has indeed become more screen reader friendly. And, if so, which version(s)? >>>> ---- >>>> Holland's Person, Bill >>>> E-Mail: BillGallik@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>> - The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese! >>>> __________ >>>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>>> >>> >>> __________ >>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>> >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>> signature database 5321 (20100728) __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>> signature database 5321 (20100728) __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >>> __________ >>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>> >>> >> __________ >> View the list's information and change your settings at >> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >> >> > __________ > View the list's information and change your settings at > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind > > __________ > View the list's information and change your settings at > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind > __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind