Shep >Perhaps the 'Skiver' in shoemaking did something similar? < I believe so. As you say, pretty much disappeared skills. Like it would seem, reading, writing and arithmetic! Peter Chadwick Swindon MODEL ENGINEERING DISCUSSION LIST. To UNSUBSCRIBE from this list, send a blank email to, modeleng-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word "unsubscribe" in the subject line.