Shep said: >Practical fitting and turning is no longer used in production engineering, nor I suspect, is technical drawing - all being supplanted by the computer in its various guises.< The problem with this is that there are still many occasions where you need model shop techniques, especially for experimental work. There are times when you want to validate (or otherwise!) the computer models. So young engineers with no capability of drawing can't readily express their needs if they can't draw, and if they've no feel for the practicalities, they can (and do)ask for the un-manufacturable. It has now reached the stage where various experimental bits and pieces for my work are faster made in my workshop at home (despite the scrap and the swarf!) than for me to do a drawing, finding an engineering jobbing shop to make them, get a quote and await their arrival. Plus a common failing is that for bit of radio frequency stuff, jobbing shops use their initiative in material substitution. On one occasion recently, that happened at one of our other places that went down this sub contracting route. PTFE was specified. The jobbing shop didn't have PTFE, but PTFE is white plastic, right? And they'd got some white plastic... Thus a delay while they got PTFE to make it work! There's more to being a real engineer than being a computer jockey who can drive a simulator! Peter Chadwick Swindon MODEL ENGINEERING DISCUSSION LIST. To UNSUBSCRIBE from this list, send a blank email to, modeleng-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word "unsubscribe" in the subject line.