Shep, I seem to do pretty well at swarf production - but it's mainly aluminium and brass. An interesting question is if the techniques of skill were taught by 'engineers' or 'craftsmen'. How much of what we do is 'engineering' in the professional sense of the word, and how much is really craft work? Similar to the one about the 'engineer' coming to fix the telephone or washing machine or photocopier, when they're really technicians - and in a lot of cases, even that designation is a bit suspect in terms of tehoretical training. These days, few engineers (in the sense of professionally qualified) coming into the electronics field seem to have done a proper workshop practice course, including lathe work, milling, technical drawing etc. I suppose part of this is the cost compared with a few PCs. Peter Chadwick Swindon MODEL ENGINEERING DISCUSSION LIST. To UNSUBSCRIBE from this list, send a blank email to, modeleng-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word "unsubscribe" in the subject line.