oh I got recon pictures coming outta my ears even down to bomb and fire
lanes and drop points. I planned to put them on the site, but I cannot
make threads per map as I envisaged, either I am missing something or
the site does not allow new threads below a certain header level. Did
not want it all cluttered and unuseable.
I am not sure that the egress in an unexpected direction helps much from
a CAP. Its only any point if you are unknown until the bombs go off.
Usually the 15sec does not really help here because the flak will be
clearly visible even earlier giving up your route. From what I have
seen, our usual plan to come in from enemy territory so we are already
generally heading for home is about as unexpected as it will get. After
that its relying on our 2 main tactics, the element of surprise, speed
and weight of numbers. Sorry, our 3 main tactics, the element of
surprise, speed, weight of numbers and one pass.
Factor in avoiding airfields and other targets (even friendly flak
unless regrouped), and best egress routes often come down to take it or
leave it.
Being able to regroup quickly without throwing speed out the window is
the best defence (without a rear gunny). If the leader leaves flat out,
no one is going to catch up unless they were going faster during the
run. Here I mean the first guy off the target not necessarily the flight
lead. Dont want them to be slow because everyone else will blast past
which just reverses the situation. And after bombing, the concentration
is usually for me, dodge flak, get rpm and throttle up, get on heading
without pulling high G turn, look for enemies and only then do I start
looking for the rest of the bombers. So very often, I dont even know
where I am in relation to the rest. Same heading but in front or behind?
Think for those maps where the P38 is available having a plan to regroup
fast is prime - without killing egress speed. But thats true for any
fighter bombing. This is fairly easy on a large target but on those with
multiple lanes or several small areas where you have to spread out for
max effect so take different routes in and out its more problematic.
But it seems to me we also come out with our own favoured settings - or
just those we hit the target with. Rather than as Talisman (I think)
said last week, changing rpm/throttle to maintain your high speed as
long as possible rather than keeping the cruise settings we used during
ingress. I dont normally use max off target for the simple reason that
you are going to slow down to max level speed quickly anyway. But only
get it for 5minutes so take less speed for longer cos if you use 3mins
of full you lose 6mins of combat. In some cases I have used this
"excess" to bounce up height to retain energy. ie in a P38 once speed
climbing reaches 300mph I level out, dont get you much but it retains a
bit and you keep to 300mph and 1000ft higher. Maybe if who ever expects
to be in front does this, makes them more visible to those behind
(unfortunately includes enemies) to aid regroup especially with limited
side view of P38. But without regroup, climbing is disaster waiting to
happen. And being in combat power gives following aircraft option to go
full bore to catch rather than leader slowing a lot. Dont think its so
much planning an egress as having a standard plan/power settings we use
to regroup.
Not really interested in using tempest or P51 with bombs any how, but
there are several targets that 4 with clean escorts could make a mess
of. But do not think airfields and factories come under that heading. If
have the patience to climb, can do the same with P47 anyway. Takes
25minutes to get to 20k is the downside, but then I dont know how long a
tempest or P51 would take to get there with 2000lb bombs. But then dive
on a target at 450mph (it dont last long once level though and I seldom
hit target) and keep going.
I even considered whether taking an a20 with low fuel and only internal
bombs plus 3 P38 (or p47)to 20k and act as a bomb leader for some area
targets would work. However Rheinland map for me at that altitude, I
even struggle to see rivers/lakes against the ground. Its like (green)
snowbound Stalingrad for me.
TTFN
Stickz
On 16/11/2019 12:33, 56RAF_phoenix wrote:
I was saying to Cina last night, that in general we need to spend more time planning our egress. We think quite a lot about how to get to a target while minimising the chance of interception.
But the egress is often "head for home as fast as we can".
Recon pics as from Stickz really help because we can allocate targets, maximise the impact (dropping along the axis of the target) and minimise the turn after drop thereby avoiding speed loss.
Egress in an/unexpected direction/ is a key tool to avoid CAPs.
If we're detected the tactics should depend on the aircraft. Cina and I had success belting out at full rpm full, throttle in Tempests - but they're no longer allowed bombs on Combat Box.
Often on egress we're a bit separated, so I'm not convinced we can offer mutual support without any rear gunner in a P-38, etgo climbing has got to be our best friend, as long as there's a bit of separation generated by our egress direction. Otherwise you're reduced to our old Blenheim tactic of sacrificing one of our number.
56RAF_phoenix
On 15/11/2019 15:17, tim foster (Redacted sender silverwings.stickz for DMARC) wrote:I must admit, my idea of perfect egress is that I egress safely rather than get shot down :)
But yes we were able to use terrain there, and he obviously had better vision than me cos I was having difficulty seeing you. But it was my own fault, didnt realise till we must have been nearly a minute off target that I still had 2 bombs slung. So little target left, nought to drop on and forgot to ditch em immediately (not gonna admit I cannot count to six). Normally I would have caught you and been in combat spread before he caught us. Usually I have come off target quicker than you and it was only cos I wasnt that made me start to question why.
But the P38 can climb vertically pretty well, you just must have good energy and distance to be out of shooting range when you do it. Hammerheads in a P38 can be pretty effective, but do need distance and energy. Supposedly a gently climbing turn also works well but offline for me it dont so take it wiv a pinch of salt. Perhaps it needs to be more a steep climb and gentle turn.
TTFN
Stickz
On 15/11/2019 14:52, Marcin Wochnik wrote:
Hi,
Speaking of egressing from the target on low level me and Stickz bombed south western airfield on Ruhr Pocket map. We were attacking from west egressing east on the deck. What I observed atacking like this (west to east) was that the terrain east of the airfield goes lower that the airfield which allows perfect egress from target area. No disturbance from flak while going away from the target. Still we were unlucky to attract enemy fighter capping the target and he bounced us on the way. I saw him to late to warn Stickz. He shot him down and moved on me but he overshot (I went up and then rolled down). He extended up and dove on me again. I went full boost and RPM, evaded his pass and turned after him. He must have been quite astonished when he looked back behind in his steep climb. I could easily keep up with his climb. If I knew I could climb like this in P38 he would have been dead. But I aimed badly since I assumed I would stall in a moment. Actually he stalled earlier than me and was making jerky maneuvers to throw off my aim. When he gained control of the aircraft and dove down to the deck he could extend from me.
I was amazed that P38 can climb like I did yesterday. I never practised combat in that plane but I learned my lesson.
Cheers,
Cina
pt., 15 lis 2019 o 15:23 Michael Colby <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> napisał(a):
Interesting about the flak, because if I remember correctly, the
3 of us in P38's that attacked the target diving close together
in a way that we arrived together very quickly and left together
quickly, meant that we got away and returned home. Perhaps
arriving and leaving together very quickly in one pass with
multiple aircraft to split the anti-aircraft gunfire is a
different ball game than arriving as a single aircraft with no
support and drawing all the anti-aircraft gunfire like the
proverbial magnet.
I think there is a lot to be said for a very quick multiple
aircraft single pass on a target, though it does take good
teamwork and co-ordination. If ant-aircraft gunfire is heavy
then stay low and egress (quick as possible out of range of guns
and use terrain to mask egress), but if anti-aircraft gunfire is
not heavy then there is more chance to zoom climb, if that is
viewed as desirable. Also, providing we are close together in a
low level attack run after a dive, perhaps a shorter bomb timer
fuse would help us get away with less risk, because some of our
bomb-blast may take out anti-aircraft gunfire that might
otherwise shoot us down (reduce 15 second bomb fuse delay to
10/5 seconds?) Of course, the serious anti-aircraft guns will
be positioned some distance away from our actual target, but
sometimes vehicles and the like that are actually part of our
target can turn their fire at us too. Lead aircraft could take
10 second bomb delay and the wingman could take a 5 second bomb
delay.
Yes, strafing is risky and I must say that I am not keen on it
when flying a fighter and Stickz makes a good point regarding
visibility for the strafing run due to bombing.
Attacking ground targets is a high risk business, so we have to
expect casualties. But with good planning, teamwork and
co-ordinated flying together we can at least mitigate some of
the risk. That is why I don't mind taking the time beforehand to
plan and brief our missions to make the most of our numbers
which can be up to 6 or 8 of us on a good squad night. It would
be great if some of our rested members could return and fly with
us again.
Happy landings,
Talisman
On Friday, 15 November 2019, 11:14:06 GMT, tim foster
<dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
I attacked it last night, got engine damaged again by flak with
a single pass. Not badly, but its unusual that I get hit at all
with a fast single attack. Smaller tempest thats not suffering
compression lock might get out unscathed. And its not a good
target to strafe - and it leaves you vulnerable. Wait for dust
to clear, get firing lane, all that time gone since alerts gone
off with a field 20km away. No one watching you. To strafe you
need top cover, the P38s have left as planned. Much as I want to
win a map, I'd rather we left a strafeable truck and all got
home than lose one plane and get the truck.
TTFN
Stickz
On 15/11/2019 06:09, klem56 (Redacted sender klem56 for DMARC)
wrote:
It would have been nice to find something to shoot at but I'd
prefer to avoid a suicidal strafing run unless it meant
actually closing the target. Not much point in killing a few
trucks if there is more to kill that needed another bombing run.
klem
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On 14/11/2019 15:09, tim foster (Redacted sender
silverwings.stickz for DMARC) wrote:
Boots right though, the flak there is pretty hard, whilst I
took a slow pass to make those screenshots and then came into
attack I got hit pretty hard (course its a big plane). The
strafeable targets are mainly beside the road, and you can see
3 flak covering it(at least). Once we wake it up, they would
take the full ferocity in the face. With our 15sec bomb delay
they gonna be coming in late to give smoke time to settle to
actually see viable targets with us not pulling the flak.
Means they are also way behind. From cina/klem point of view
of course it might have been worth it instead of 2 hours
following us around never seeing an enemy nor firing a gun.
TTFN
Stickz
On 14/11/2019 13:26, Michael Colby (Redacted sender
michael.colby82 for DMARC) wrote:
Nice one Stickz. Thanks!
Our two P.38 missions last night were very enjoyable :)
It was good to have the escorts, as visibility from the P.38
is not so good for searching for bandits on-route.
Looks to me like our escorts, or a portion of our escort,
could be given the option of a single run cannon strafe next
time we attack that target.
Thanks again Stickz.
Happy landings,
Talisman
On Thursday, 14 November 2019, 13:08:07 GMT, tim foster
<dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<mailto:dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
yeah I was trying to put ackbar and the 4077th reference in
but couldnt
remember his name nor the mash number at that time of the
morning so it
got rather lost.
It was meant to be red H is gen ackbars 4077th hospital, then
the trap
pun in the second picture line
On 14/11/2019 07:32, Lee Fisher (Redacted sender l.fisher for
DMARC) wrote:
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On 14 Nov 2019, at 07:18, 56RAF_phoenix
<phoenix@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:phoenix@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
>>
>> I dropped two bombs on the away-from-the-road netted
targets, four on the hospital. That explains why I got only
one building.
>> Good recon, Stickz.
>>
>> 56RAF_phoenix
>>
>>> On 14/11/2019 00:54, tim foster (Redacted sender
silverwings.stickz for DMARC) wrote:
>>> for those of you who only attack a target once a week so
probably cast the same one once a year
>>>
>>> Last nights rally point target, rally tagt shows your
view more or less from the route boot brought you in. The red
H is a hospital. Red squares are target areas.
>>>
>>> Rally_close shows a close up also from same route path,
red areas are targets. And I would guess the 2 purple areas
are also targets - although I guess the hospital maybe a trap
>>>
>>>
>>> TTFN
>>>
>>> Stickz
>>>
>>
-- if you dont live life on the edge you are taking up too much
space
-- if you dont live life on the edge you are taking up too much space
-- if you dont live life on the edge you are taking up too much space
--
if you dont live life on the edge you are taking up too much space
