[opendtv] Re: Copps proposes more FCC action
- From: "John Willkie" <johnwillkie@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 23:13:25 -0700
Oh, I see. All one needed to transmit was an OFDM patent? But, pray tell,
what was the first licensed use of either patent?
What year did the ATSC finish work on the Grand Alliance? What (later) year
did DVB finish work on DVB-T/S/C? I would offer that a working standard is
the bare requirement -- basically an agreement between transmitters and
receivers -- on having a digital transmission system.
Your "facts" in this area are actually anecdotes, and playing with the bar,
since "transmitting digitally" is more than just using a modulation scheme.
And, Zenith did OVER THE AIR tests on the modulation system that ended up
being the major part of the 8-VSB system in 1989 or 1990. It was actually
written up contemporaneously in several broadcast engineering publications.
And, this point is rather important, the ACATS process began in 1989.
This page provides ATSC documents as of 1996
http://web.archive.org/web/19961029124823/atsc.org/document.html
This page http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.dvb.org shows that almost
two years later, DVB seemed to have no web site to speak of, and no
documents available. You seem to think they were ahead of ATSC; any
participant will tell you they were AT LEAST 2 years behind the ATSC
process.
Here's another important point: by the time the U.S. had adopted -- in law
and regulation -- a DTV system, the DVB process hadn't yet yielded a working
standard. You snooze, you lose.
How far do you think I should go to disprove that you are engaged in spin
and not facts?
As to your reception condition. I don't want to hear anything more of it.
You can get your signals off satellite, you can move, you can put an
extension up to your tower, you can get your Philly tv off cable. You are
not destitute, you can afford an expensive hobby. Instead, you whine about
your condition. Would things be different if your life was at stake?
I have the same reception problems as you, sort of. Last night, I tuned in
CBS at my modest cuarto. The signal broke up several times in a few
minutes. (I have a life; I didn't count.) Of course, I was watching
KCBS-DT, some 135 miles away. You see, I cannot get the San Diego CBS
affiliate until after analog sunsets, due to their using the same frequency
as KABC-TV, having given up their loaner channel to MediaFlo in April.
You, like I, am a broadcast engineer. I chose where I live based on
reception conditions and line of sight, among other considerations. You
chose a sub-optimal home location based on reception of NTSC Philly
stations. For you, 8-VSB is worse than NTSC. For me, it's better. You
bargained and lost on that one.
This is a personal, not a national, problem.
It would be funny, by the way, if ATSC M/H works just fine at your house.
Then, you'd have the choice of a small screen with (apparently)
highly-reliable digital video, or hdtv video that breaks up. A Hobson's
choice for someone interested in quality and reliability.
John Willkie
-----Mensaje original-----
De: opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:opendtv-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] En
nombre de Cliff Benham
Enviado el: Sunday, September 14, 2008 8:38 PM
Para: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Asunto: [opendtv] Re: Copps proposes more FCC action
John Willkie wrote:
> The "bad system" was NTSC, at least by a decade after adoption. The same
> cannot be said for 8-VSB.
I guess we will agree to disagree.
When you get reception, your picture is perfect
> of near-perfect. ]
Tonight I counted the number of breakups and freezes
that occurred during the 30 minute ABC network news program
received OTA from WPVI-DT, Phildelphia:
I stopped counting at 23. Several times the pertinant information being
presented was lost due to the momentary failures of the ATSC
transmission/reception system.
It has never been that way with NTSC, nor will it ever be
> that way.
While the picture quality is certainly not as good, the information is
there without having to guess about what was said during an ATSC freeze
or a breakup.
That's much more important to me than "multiplexing" perfect pictures
alternating randomly with green and black screen moments accompanied by
bursts of silence.
> The ATSC system will be found to serve virtually the same audience as the
> NTSC system did the day before. You are actually spinning this one,
Cliff.
>
No, John, I'm just reporting what I see with my own eyes.
>
> Half the country's population DOES NOT RELY on ota, even if you include
the
> number of satellite homes and double the figure.
>
> Set the bar low for that which you favor (NTSC, I suspect) and set it high
> for that which you oppose.
I do not oppose the idea of a high quality video transmission system. I
only oppose the one we have now which isn't.
>
> The Congress did not foist a broken system on the country; it adopted the
> ONLY terrestrial digital TV system that existed at that time.
The earliest date for a patent filing for an OFDM system for TV use I
can find is October 20, 1989.
http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?WO=1990/04893
The earliest date I can find for 8VSB is slightly later than the OFDM date.
http://www.patentlens.net/patentlens/search_ajax.cgi?patnum=US/7277505
JUST LIKE
> NTSC. Oh, that's right -- there was the color wheel system, which had
> failed in the marketplace, and which required 3 channels for each station.
> Imagine if you had 1/3 the ota channels to watch today.
No. The FCC approved CBS color system occupied the same 6 mHz bandwidth
as NTSC. http://novia.net/~ereitan/Color_Sys_CBS.html
Further, at the same time [late 1946] the earlier CBS laboratory color
system occupied 12 mHz, RCA's simultaneous color system occupied 14.5
mHz! http://novia.net/~ereitan/CBS_Chronology_rev_h_edit.htm
> Time moves on, Cliff. Do you?
Yes. And I'm also certain of my facts and dates.
P.S.-Did you know that in late 1945, RCA built and tested a complete
field sequential television system using color wheels? And that it was
capable of 3-D color as well?
http://www.earlytelevision.org/rca_field_sequential.html
Described in detail in the "RCA Review, Volume VII, June, 1946 No. 2."
"An Experimental Color Television System," pages 141-154.
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