[muglo] Re: "kettle of fish" [VERY OFF]
- From: Larry Kryski <spellboundpub@xxxxxxxxxx>
- To: MUGLO <muglo@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 18:45:34 -0500
On 05/02/08 01:54 AM, "Eric Dunbar" <eric.dunbar@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Ubuntu is a slightly different kettle of fish (where did that saying
> come from?).
Hi Eric,=20
I hate to see your minor musings go unanswered and your education
incomplete! ;-)
So I've included a few definitions from Dictionary.com and a musing of my
own on the possible origin of the expression.
Larry
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=A0
From Dictionary.com--3 entries
1. KETTLE OF FISH
n. pl. kettles of fish
1. A troublesomely awkward or embarrassing situation.
2. A matter to be reckoned with: Making money and keeping it are two
quite different kettles of fish.
SOURCE: The American Heritage=AE Dictionary of the English Language, 4th Ed.
Copyright =A9 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
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2. KETTLE OF FISH
1. Also, a fine or pretty kettle of fish. An unpleasant or messy
predicament, as in They haven't spoken in years, and they're assigned to
adjoining seats, that's a fine kettle of fish. This term alludes to the
Scottish riverside picnic called kettle of fish, where freshly caught salmo=
n
were boiled and eaten out of hand. [Early 1700s]
2. a different or another kettle of fish. A very different matter
or issue, not necessarily a bad one. For example, They're paying for the
meal? That's a different kettle of fish. [First half of 1900s]
SOURCE: The American Heritage=AE Dictionary of Idioms. Copyright =A9 1997 by Th=
e
Christine Ammer 1992 Trust. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company.
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3. KETTLE OF FISH
n : informal terms for a difficult situation; "he got into a terrible fix";
"he made a muddle of his marriage".
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My own musings are that this expression may be a distortion of the
expression "KENTLE OF FISH".
When I moved to Newfoundland, I used to wonder about the expresssion"kettle
of fish", which you might expect is an oft heard expression there. My
Grandfather had been a fisherman and the expression "kentle of fish"would
often come up in conversations. The online version of Webster's 1828
dictionary gives the following definition of kentle:
KEN'TLE, n. [L. centum.] In commerce, a hundred pounds in weight; as a
kentle of fish. [It is written and pronounced also quintal.]
SOURCE: Webster's 1828 Dictionary, Electronic Version by Christian
Technologies, Inc.
A couple of more-modern sources show the weight actually varied depending o=
n
locale; whether it was used in Europe, Britain or the U.S..
KENTLE
Quintal \Quin"tal\, n. [F., fr. Sp. quintal, fr. Ar. qintar a weight of 100
lbs., prob. fr. L. centenarius consisting of a hundred, fr. centeni a
hundred each, fr. centum a hundred. See Hundred, and cf. Kentle.] 1. A
hundredweight, either 112 or 100 pounds, according to the scale used. Cf.
Cental. [Sometimes written and pronounced kentle.]
2. A metric measure of weight, being 100,000 grams, or 100 kilograms, equa=
l
to 220.46 pounds avoirdupois.
SOURCE: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, =A9 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.
I've included the definition of "hundredweight" since it was quite transien=
t
as well:
HUNDREDWEIGHT
hun=B7dred=B7weight =A0=A0 =A0P=A0=A0=A0Pronunciation Key=A0=A0(hndrd-wt)
n. pl. hundredweight or hun=B7dred=B7weights Abbr. cwt
1. A unit of weight in the U.S. Customary System equal to 100
pounds (45.36 kilograms). Also called cental, short hundredweight.
2. A unit of weight in the British Imperial System equal to 112
pounds (50.80 kilograms). Also called quintal.
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So you can see that "kentle of fish" has a long linguistic history, its us=
e
spanning into the middle of the last century [see the story excerpt below,
which came up when I searched for "kentle of fish" on the web. The excerpt
is from a short story by a 90-year-old Newfoundlander, at the link shown.]
Since kentle was a commercial term, it would not be inconceivable for the
frequently used commercial term to have evolved into the "kettle of fish"
expression. I've often heard the extended expressions "a fine kettle of
fish" or a "different kettle of fish" being used, which might have made
sense coming from a commercial setting, if you were trying to sell your
catch or differentiate it from the competition. Even definition number 2 of
"kettle of fish" makes a financial [commercial??] reference, perhaps
suggesting its natural roots. Even the first definition might have business
overtones, since it can be used to suggest derision, although alternate use=
s
often suggest praise.
I wonder if any of our members who have British roots, might have had any
exposure to this expression before they came to Canada? There is the
Scottish reference in one of the definitions but that doesn't preclude the
distortion of kentle. And I don't have any inkling as to the nature or
status of the language spoken by the Scots at that time in history.
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http://www.nald.ca/clr/hardship/p14.htm
In 1930, I went to Lunenburg, Nova Scotia fishing on a schooner. It had 1=
0
dories. The main boat would anchor and then they would go off and set their
trawls. One time they spent 72 hours without stopping. We cleaned and store=
d
the fish. Back then there was no salt. We kept it cool with a tarpaulin
over it. Our skipper was from Montreal. He would give us money to go to th=
e
restaurant for a sandwich. There wasn't much money then. In all, we got
2100 kentle of fish. Another time we went to a restaurant and had a few
drinks of liquor. Back then a bottle was $1.50. One night we went to a
dance. I met a girl and had a date. Her name was Veronica Hickey. I got
married in 1943 at the Cathedral. Mrs. Tobin had a boarding house in St.
John's. She had the "time" there and never charged me a cent (she was from
Colinet). We had five bottles of rum. That was a lot. That's all I got to
say.
=20
**********************
Larry Kryski
Spell Bound Publishing
Suite 121
4056 Meadowbrook Drive
London, Ontario N6L 1E3
Canada
PH: 519 652-8267
FX: 519 652-8268
**********************
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