[muglo] Re: "kettle of fish" [VERY OFF]
- From: Larry Kryski <spellboundpub@xxxxxxxxxx>
- To: MUGLO <muglo@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 09:58:26 -0500
Interesting adjunct, Tee. And interesting that it should be used in this
fashion. I wonder if this was a totally independent term at this time, or
whether it had perhaps already crossed over from the term kentle? I know
there are areas of Britain where there is a lot of "liberty" taken with
language.=20
Your uncle must have had a booming business selling fish, to buy 10 tons a
week!
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
I had forwarded the original e-mail to my brother and he wrote back with an
interesting angle.
Larry,
Nice research results.
I agree that kettle suggests it is a corruption of quintal, which I learned
about reading Captain's Courageous in Grade 9.
I believe the hundredweight of 112 lb suggests some spoilage was normal.
I'll forward this to my office, as a reminder to check my copy of the
Dictionary of Newfoundland English.
John
[The Dictionary of Newfoundland English contains about 50,000 Newfoundland
terms and expressions that are peculiar to Newfoundland (although, I would
guess that many have roots in the British Isles.) Since Newfoundland's and
Britain's histories have been so closely linked since 1492, it may provide
some insight.]
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
I decided to look up the definition of kettle, in case it might throw some
light on the question. There were a couple of minor surprises, such as the
5th definition from the American Heritage Dictionary and the reference to
kettle being a quantity by the more modern WordNet definition number 2.
KETTLE
n.=20
1. A metal pot, usually with a lid, for boiling or stewing.
2. A teakettle.
3. Music. A kettledrum.
4. Geology. A depression left in a mass of glacial drift, formed b=
y
the melting of an isolated block of glacial ice.
5. A pothole. [I wonder if this has roots in Britain? I've never
heard it used in Canada.]
[Middle English ketel, from Old Norse ketill, and Old English cetel both
from Latin catllus, diminutive of catnus, large bowl.]
SOURCE: The American Heritage=AE Dictionary of the English Language, 4th Ed.
Copyright =A9 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
KETTLE
n 1: a metal pot for stewing or boiling; usually has a lid [syn: boiler] 2:
the quantity a kettle will hold [syn: kettleful] 3: (geology) a hollow
(typically filled by a lake) that results from the melting of a mass of ice
trapped in glacial deposits [syn: kettle hole]
SOURCE: WordNet =AE 2.0, =A9 2003 Princeton University
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
=20
Paul and Ted attest to the common expression in Britain. I wonder if it is
also used in the U.S.; perhaps in the New England states. I know that their
fishing heritage carries many of the fishing tunes that I've heard in
Newfoundland, but oft with different words.
Ted's quote from Brewer's Dictionary was interesting. It's interesting that
they specify salmon, which would certainly be very different from the
ocean-going catches (although salmon would show up there, too.)
Brewer's Dict. of Phrase and Fable confirms the idea of a salmon catch whic=
h
is boiled and eaten under uncomfortable conditions [Did this mean, perhaps,
living in Scotland? :-) ].
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Does anyone know when the earliest English dictionary was created? It would
seem that the answer to this question may perhaps be very old, if the term
kentle distorted into kettle, with respect to fish. A very linguistically
uncritical population might make the shift quite easily over a generation o=
r
two, if indeed there was a shift at all.
On 05/02/08 07:56 PM, "Tee Cashmore" <teecashmore@xxxxxx> wrote:
>=20
> On 8-Feb-05, at 6:45 PM, Larry Kryski wrote:
>=20
>> I wonder if any of our members who have British roots, might have had
>> any exposure to this expression before they came to Canada? There is
>> the Scottish reference in one of the definitions but that doesn't
>> preclude the distortion of kentle. And I don't have any inkling as to
>> the nature or
>> status of the language spoken by the Scots at that time in history.
>>=20
>=20
> When I was a lad a "Kettle" was the name of the metal container that
> fish were loaded into on the boat & hauled up to the Fish dock where
> the kettles were weighed. They were quite large so 100 lbs would sound
> about right. An uncle of mine used to but 203 kettles a week for his
> store.
> TTFN,
> TeeC
>=20
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**********************
Larry Kryski
Spell Bound Publishing
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