[lit-ideas] Re: Link to "Mohammed" cartoons
- From: "Lawrence Helm" <lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 21:08:12 -0800
I can't spare you, Irene. Jews lived in Palestine longer than the Arabs
did. Yes, Zionists considered where to take larger Jewish populations and
to have an official state. Yes, Zionists sought the legal right to live in
Palestine where Jews were already living. Why do you think Jews should
abandon their traditional homeland? Yes, Muslims conquered them in the
past, but Muslims were not in power when the Zionists asked Britain to
legitimize their presence there.
Muslims conquered the Jews in the past. Jews conquered Arabs in the present
- not a good reason to blame the Jews.
Lawrence
_____
From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Andy Amago
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 8:52 PM
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Link to "Mohammed" cartoons
Lawrence, I've posted on the history of Palestine, much longer versions than
this, so spare me. I know the Jews were looking for a homeland after WWII,
and certainly they needed one, but they settled on Palestine long before
WWII. They went to Palestine and expropriated the indigenous population and
turned it into a country for themselves. One does that at one's peril.
Well, lo and behold, the peril happened and became an institution. Pressure
could have put on the U.S. to take in refugees or some other solution than
throwing someone out of their home and taking over.
----- Original Message -----
From: Lawrence <mailto:lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx> Helm
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: 2/8/2006 11:43:12 PM
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Link to "Mohammed" cartoons
Irene,
The short version of Israeli history: The Jews always lived in Palestine.
It wasnt called Israel back then, but there were Jews living there as well
as Arabs. The treaty with Britain gave the Jews the right to live where
they were already living. You must be confused by the fact that during and
after WWII, many additional Jews fled to Israel. Your statement to the
effect that they ought to know what they were getting into, is rather
insensitive Irene. Id be offended if I were a Jew. They were fleeing
Europeans bent upon killing them and joining like minded people in a land
they were legally entitled to live in.
When Britain left the area, they were pretty sloppy about it. They told the
Jews they could have the area per treaty if they could manage to keep it.
The Arabs tried to toss them out. Large numbers of Arabs fled during that
initial 1949 war. Arabs tried several more times to toss them out and
failed. Israel is a tremendous affront to the Arab world because they
refuse to die.
Lawrence
-----Original Message-----
From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Andy Amago
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 7:07 PM
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Link to "Mohammed" cartoons
Just one question, Stan. Did Jews not know what they were getting into
when they situated Israel in Palestine? Who did they think lived there?
> [Original Message]
> From: Stan Spiegel <writeforu2@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: 2/8/2006 9:57:55 PM
> Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Link to "Mohammed" cartoons
>
> J.E. Who, here, has sought to suggest there are no anti-Jewish cartoons
in
> the Muslim world?
> Who, here, is unaware of the hate literature there? Why should you
imagine
> for one moment even that we (who regard the cartoons as offensive) think
> part of the Muslim response (the response of part of the Muslim world)
> should not be criticised? To think we say or believe that they are both
> exempt from criticism and are the only ones exempt from criticism is,
well,
> strange.
>
> S.S. When David Savory tells us: If you knew anything about Islam
> you'd know you don't draw pictures of Muhammad. Period.-- then I guess
I'm
> strange to take offense. I'm strange when I'm asked to be sensitive to
> muslim feelings when they're free to draw disgusting pictures of Jews.
> David's self-righteousness about muslim sensitivities leaves me pretty
> disgusted. This whole discussion shows too much sensitivity to Muslims
(and
> insensitivity to Jews.) That you have some hidden awareness of the hatred
> they show -- and feel justified in showing again and again -- is
irrelevant.
> We're not talking about "hate literature." We're talking about education.
> The systematic education of muslim children. That's different from hate
> literature, Judy.
>
> The muslim point of view is so toxic (and uncompromisingly dangerous)
there
> are virtually no Jews that live in the 22 Arab nations that surround and
> hope to annihilate Israel.
>
> And we should be sensitive to Muslims who move to Denmark and other
Western
> societies? Why are they living there instead of in Syria and Saudi
Arabia,
> in Lebanon and Kuwait? They moved there predictably because there's more
> hope and promise of a better life. In exchange for that better life, they
> needed to learn the values of an open society. That included freedom of
> speech.
>
> If you read the interconnected articles attached to those cartoons, you'd
> know that muslims in Denmark expected the govt to apologize to them.
Denmark
> refused! That wouldn't have happened in England or America, I think.
Their
> refusal to apologize underlined the value of freedom of speech. That
> newspaper had
> the right to criticize muslims (which the cartoons of Muhammed
reflected.)
> It needed to be said out loud.
>
> Have you noticed how many newspapers in America have shown those
cartoons?
> (None) Until I showed them, how many of you even knew what they looked
like?
> That the uproar muslims created intimidated American newspapers into
silence
> (not showing the cartoons is silence) is troubling. Are we to treat
Muslims
> in Western societies different from any other ethnic (not religious)
group
> in order to avoid bloodshed?
>
> Stan Spiegel
> Portland, ME
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "JUDITH EVANS" <judithevans1@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 3:05 PM
> Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Link to "Mohammed" cartoons
>
>
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Stan Spiegel" <writeforu2@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >
> >> If you knew anything about Islam, David, you'd know how methodically
they
> >> educate their children to hate Jews. Carefully, systematically,
> >> unrelentingly. Interesting to see how sensitive you are to those poor
> >> thin-skinned Muslims. I'm not! Especially those who've been welcomed
into
> >> Western countries like Denmark. They've seen political cartoons before.
> > Are
> >> they the only ones who are to be exempt from criticism?
> >
> > Stan, when I first posted -- here and on another list -- to the effect
> > that
> > I thought a couple of these cartoons were offensive, a major response
was
> > that I believed in threatening to kill (pr even in killing) the
> > cartoonists
> > or the publisher. I don't think anyone who said that really believed
it,
> > still, they did believe I hadn't defended free speech adequately.
> >
> > Your response seems to me to be a variant of this tic. Who, here, has
> > sought to suggest there are no anti-Jewish cartoons in the Muslim world?
> > Who, here, is unaware of the hate literature there? Why should you
> > imagine
> > for one moment even that we (who regard the cartoons as offensive) think
> > part of the Muslim response (the response of part of the Muslim world)
> > should not be criticised? To think we say or believe that they are both
> > exempt from criticism and are the only ones exempt from criticism is,
> > well,
> > strange.
> >
> >
> >
> >
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