---- Original Message ----- From: Mike Geary To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: 9/14/2005 5:57:37 PM Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Illegal Immigration A.A. Exactly. So how do you propose to do it. Supporting the illegals is what the farmers are doing, what you're doing. While exposing the country to who knows what. Mike: Exposing the country to global free market capitalism, that's what. **A.A. More like exposing the country to people who have nefarious intent. Mike; Not me though. While I support some aspects of global capitalism, there are many things in it that I find alarming for human freedom and dignity and etc., etc., etc. But I also find it alarming that you are blaming immigrants for low wages. It's US AMERICAN VOTERS who elect the shitheads in Congress who are to blame. Rail against your Replublican neighbors, for God's sake. Better yet, deport them to Niger. **A.A. You're right. Americans don't know or care what's going on in Congress and Congress knows it. Allowing illegal immigration, with emphasis on the word illegal, is part of the overall climate of Congress. They circumvent the laws and let industry write the laws to rip off the taxpayer. They figure what the hell, what's wrong with it, it's illegal. A.A. Oh please. Blame capitalism. And blame God while you're at it. What does blame capitalism mean? Mike: We can't do anything about God unfortunately. But capitalism, we can. What does it mean to blame capitalism? It means that there's an inherent problem in the economic structure of the society. *A.A. Feudalism was worse. It's not capitalism's fault, it's the corrupt nature of the human beast. Americans are dropping the ball regulating corruption in Congress. That I'll grant you is the problem. Mike: That structure is a legal construct and can be changed by legislation. **A.A. Except that just the opposite is happening. Mike: I don't know where the mystery is. I think what you're objecting to is the difficulty in effecting any meaningful changes. **A.A. We had a chance for meaningful change with Kerry. Didn't happen. I think I'm really objecting to the stupidity of the electorate. They're clueless what's going on in their government, their country. All this time they thought Bush was great. 39% still think he is. Mike: I agree with you that it would be difficult -- as I responded to John Mc -- I believe this country's numero uno value is individual wealth. Maybe nothing can ever be done. That doesn't justify coming down on the innocents. So stop beating up on the immigrants and get busy working for the change you want to see happen. **A.A. Innocents are welcome. Illegals are not. Andy Amago Mike Geary Memphis ----- Original Message ----- From: Andy Amago To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ; lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 4:05 PM Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Illegal Immigration ---- Original Message ----- From: Mike Geary To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: 9/14/2005 4:38:54 PM Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Illegal Immigration I wrote: >> "Raise the minimum wage. It's as simple as that. Make the minimum wage in >> this country a living, family, saving wage." Phil demurs: > This wouldn't work because there are poorer people in other countries > willing to do the work for less pay. But they can't. The employer can't legally pay less than the minimum wage. Don't you get it? Marlena feels the pain of her unemployed friends and blames the Mexicans for keeping wages down. The Mexicans aren't keeping wages down, the farmers are. They're able to because they're mostly exempt from minimum wage laws. Don't let them be. Raise the minimum wage to at least $10 an hour then Marlena's friends will all run to pick cucumbers ten hours a day. Workers will compete in productivity, not wages. But of course, the farmers won't then contribute to the congressmen's reelection campaigns. A.A. Exactly. So how do you propose to do it. Supporting the illegals is what the farmers are doing, what you're doing. While exposing the country to who knows what. > It seems to me that Mike's solution is > merely an extension of the problem, namely that having more money can solve > whatever problems one is facing. That seems a bizarre reading of what I said. I merely proposed that if you're worried about migrant workers keeping wages down, then set a minimum wage by law. Don't blame the workers. Hell, don't even blame the farmers -- blame capitalism. Then take ameliorative action. A.A. Oh please. Blame capitalism. And blame God while you're at it. What does blame capitalism mean? > Instead, it seems to me that one way of > improving the lot of the poor is giving them a better opportunity for making > a decent living. At a minimum I would think this includes a decent > education and access to decent health care. An educated, healthy work force > attracts work and a better standard of living. I certainly agree with all that. But that doesn't address the problem of low wages as decried by Marlena and Andy. They blame the immigrants. I blame the system and would make changes to it. A.A. This is like what Paul did about saying the N.O. victims should just leave. No details as to how or where to go. Just leave. Now it's just blame capitalism. > The wealthy already shoulder a great deal of the tax burden. A.A. This is downright misinformed. It's not even close to reality. The wealthy get away with tax murder. I agree here with Mike, below. (Mike) Poor dears. According to the UN's Human Development Report released this week: "The 500 richest individuals [in the world] have a combined income greater than that of the poorest 416 million." And according to the Economist Magazine, executive take home pay relative to factory floor workers pay among various countries is: Japan 11 times greater Germany 12 times France 15 times Italy 20 times Canada 20 times South Africa 21 times Britain 22 times Hong Kong 41 times Mexico 47 times USA 475 times. Did you get that? In the US, executives (who do nothing, after all) make 475 times more income than the working stiffs who do the work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You want me to cry for those slugs???? Sorry. Let them make whatever they can, but tax their asses down to $20,000 take home pay, I say. If they want more, let them work for it down on the floor. > For example, instead of > subsidizing areas of the U.S. economy that cannot compete in the global > market, why not use that money to establish a universal health care system > that will raise the standards of the labour force? If the government wants > to support business, give them better workers so that they can better > compete. Now you're talking. A.A. And how would we pay for this universal health care system? As I recall, Hillary was shown the door on this very policy. Andy Amago Mike Geary Memphis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Phil Enns" <phil.enns@xxxxxxxxxxx> To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 11:47 AM Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Illegal Immigration > Mike Geary wrote: > > "Raise the minimum wage. It's as simple as that. Make the minimum wage in > this country a living, family, saving wage." > > This wouldn't work because there are poorer people in other countries > willing to do the work for less pay. And they deserve to have a shot at a > good life as much as anyone else. It seems to me that Mike's solution is > merely an extension of the problem, namely that having more money can solve > whatever problems one is facing. Instead, it seems to me that one way of > improving the lot of the poor is giving them a better opportunity for making > a decent living. At a minimum I would think this includes a decent > education and access to decent health care. An educated, healthy work force > attracts work and a better stan dard of living. > > > Mike continues: > > "Let's try raising the minimum wage and taxing the wealthy before attacking > the poor." > > The wealthy already shoulder a great deal of the tax burden. If you don't > like the crooks in office, why fight to give them more loot to plunder? > Perhaps the answer is to give politicians less money to work with and expect > them to do a better job with what they get. For example, instead of > subsidizing areas of the U.S. economy that cannot compete in the global > market, why not use that money to establish a universal health care system > that will raise the standards of the labour force? If the government wants > to support business, give them better workers so that they can better > compete. > > > Sincerely, > > Phil Enns > Toronto, ON > > --------------------------- --------------------------------------- > To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off, > digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html >