[lit-ideas] Re: Illegal Immigration

---- Original Message ----- 
From: Mike Geary 
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: 9/14/2005 5:57:37 PM 
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Illegal Immigration


A.A. Exactly.  So how do you propose to do it.  Supporting the illegals is what 
the farmers are doing, what you're doing.  While exposing the country to who 
knows what.


Mike:  Exposing the country to global free market capitalism, that's what.  


**A.A.  More like exposing the country to people who have nefarious intent.  


Mike;  Not me though.  While I support some aspects of global capitalism, there 
are many things in it that I find alarming for human freedom and dignity and 
etc., etc., etc.  But I also find it alarming that you are blaming immigrants 
for low wages.  It's US AMERICAN VOTERS who elect the shitheads in Congress who 
are to blame.  Rail against your Replublican neighbors, for God's sake.  Better 
yet, deport them to Niger. 


**A.A.  You're right.  Americans don't know or care what's going on in Congress 
and Congress knows it.  Allowing illegal immigration, with emphasis on the word 
illegal, is part of the overall climate of Congress.  They circumvent the laws 
and let industry write the laws to rip off the taxpayer.  They figure what the 
hell, what's wrong with it, it's illegal.



A.A.  Oh please.  Blame capitalism.  And blame God while you're at it.   What 
does blame capitalism mean?

Mike:  We can't do anything about God unfortunately.  But capitalism, we can.  
What does it mean to blame capitalism?  It means that there's an inherent 
problem in the economic structure of the society.  


*A.A.  Feudalism was worse.  It's not capitalism's fault, it's the corrupt 
nature of the human beast.  Americans are dropping the ball regulating 
corruption in Congress.  That I'll grant you is the problem.



Mike:  That structure is a legal construct and can be changed by legislation.  


**A.A. Except that just the opposite is happening.



Mike:  I don't know where the mystery is.  I think what you're objecting to is 
the difficulty in effecting any meaningful changes.  


**A.A. We had a chance for meaningful change with Kerry.  Didn't happen.  I 
think I'm really objecting to the stupidity of the electorate.  They're 
clueless what's going on in their government, their country.  All this time 
they thought Bush was great.  39% still think he is.


Mike:  I agree with you that it would be difficult -- as I responded to John Mc 
-- I believe this country's numero uno value is individual wealth.  Maybe 
nothing can ever be done.  That doesn't justify coming down on the innocents.  
So stop beating up on the immigrants and get busy working for the change you 
want to see happen.


**A.A.  Innocents are welcome.  Illegals are not.


Andy Amago



Mike Geary
Memphis



----- Original Message ----- 
From: Andy Amago 
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ; lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 4:05 PM
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Illegal Immigration


---- Original Message ----- 
From: Mike Geary 
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: 9/14/2005 4:38:54 PM 
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Illegal Immigration


I wrote:
>> "Raise the minimum wage.  It's as simple as that.  Make the minimum wage in
>> this country a living, family, saving wage."

Phil demurs:
> This wouldn't work because there are poorer people in other countries
> willing to do the work for less pay. 

But they can't.  The employer can't legally pay  less than the minimum wage.  
Don't you get it?  Marlena feels the pain of her unemployed friends and blames 
the Mexicans for keeping wages down.  The Mexicans aren't keeping wages down, 
the farmers are.  They're able to because they're mostly exempt from minimum 
wage laws.  Don't let them be.  Raise the minimum wage to at least $10 an hour 
then Marlena's friends will all run to pick cucumbers ten hours a day.  Workers 
will compete in productivity, not wages.  But of course, the farmers won't then 
contribute to the congressmen's reelection campaigns.


A.A. Exactly.  So how do you propose to do it.  Supporting the illegals is what 
the farmers are doing, what you're doing.  While exposing the country to who 
knows what.




> It seems to me that Mike's solution is
> merely an extension of the problem, namely that having more money can solve
> whatever problems one is facing. 

That seems a bizarre reading of what I said.  I merely proposed that if you're 
worried about migrant workers keeping wages down, then set a minimum wage by 
law.  Don't blame the workers.  Hell, don't even blame the farmers -- blame 
capitalism.  Then take ameliorative action.


A.A.  Oh please.  Blame capitalism.  And blame God while you're at it.   What 
does blame capitalism mean?




> Instead, it seems to me that one way of
> improving the lot of the poor is giving them a better opportunity for making
> a decent living.  At a minimum I would think this includes a decent
> education and access to decent health care.  An educated, healthy work force
> attracts work and a better standard of living.

I certainly agree with all that.  But that doesn't address the problem of low 
wages as decried by Marlena and Andy.  They blame the immigrants.  I blame the 
system and would make changes to it.



A.A. This is like what Paul did about saying the N.O. victims should just 
leave.  No details as to how or where to go.  Just leave.  Now it's just blame 
capitalism.  




> The wealthy already shoulder a great deal of the tax burden. 


A.A.  This is downright misinformed.  It's not even close to reality.  The 
wealthy get away with tax murder.  I agree here with Mike, below.


(Mike) Poor dears.  According to the UN's Human Development Report released 
this week: "The 500 richest individuals [in the world] have a combined income 
greater than that of the poorest 416 million."  And according to the Economist 
Magazine, executive take home pay relative to factory floor workers pay among 
various countries is:  Japan      11 times greater
                   Germany 12 times
                    France    15 times
                    Italy        20 times
                    Canada   20 times
             South Africa   21 times
                    Britain     22 times
               Hong Kong  41 times
                    Mexico   47 times   
                    USA       475 times.

Did you get that?  In the US,  executives (who do nothing, after all) make 475 
times more income than the working stiffs who do the work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  You 
want me to cry for those slugs????  Sorry.  Let them make whatever they can, 
but tax their asses down to $20,000 take home pay, I say.  If they want more, 
let them work for it down on the floor.



> For example, instead of
> subsidizing areas of the U.S. economy that cannot compete in the global
> market, why not use that money to establish a universal health care system
> that will raise the standards of the labour force?  If the government wants
> to support business, give them better workers so that they can better
> compete.

Now you're talking.



A.A.  And how would we pay for this universal health care system?  As I recall, 
Hillary was shown the door on this very policy.


Andy Amago






Mike Geary
Memphis







----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Phil Enns" <phil.enns@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 11:47 AM
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Illegal Immigration


> Mike Geary wrote:
> 
> "Raise the minimum wage.  It's as simple as that.  Make the minimum wage in
> this country a living, family, saving wage."
> 
> This wouldn't work because there are poorer people in other countries
> willing to do the work for less pay.  And they deserve to have a shot at a
> good life as much as anyone else.  It seems to me that Mike's solution is
> merely an extension of the problem, namely that having more money can solve
> whatever problems one is facing.  Instead, it seems to me that one way of
> improving the lot of the poor is giving them a better opportunity for making
> a decent living.  At a minimum I would think this includes a decent
> education and access to decent health care.  An educated, healthy work force
> attracts work and a better stan dard of living.
> 
> 
> Mike continues:
> 
> "Let's try raising the minimum wage and taxing the wealthy before attacking
> the poor."
> 
> The wealthy already shoulder a great deal of the tax burden.  If you don't
> like the crooks in office, why fight to give them more loot to plunder?
> Perhaps the answer is to give politicians less money to work with and expect
> them to do a better job with what they get.  For example, instead of
> subsidizing areas of the U.S. economy that cannot compete in the global
> market, why not use that money to establish a universal health care system
> that will raise the standards of the labour force?  If the government wants
> to support business, give them better workers so that they can better
> compete.
> 
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Phil Enns
> Toronto, ON
> 
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