[geocentrism] Re: Every duty had its own own bugle call
- From: Allen Daves <allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 19:03:44 -0700 (PDT)
what Iam saying is that maybe if we were created with enough equal
intelligence, and given equal information, many more would chose
differently.... I dont think so......I think that would be true if we had all
the exact same experiances and the same soul/ heart. and every thing else...(if
we even knew what everything else was)..but we don't....This is part of the
mystery of creation...a All knowing God who can create free will man a man in
the image of God that can have a will external of God's will....Phill, if we
truly understood what free will was I think we could make computers to think
like we do and for them to make their own concsious choices.... but we can't
and we dont
----- Original Message ----
From: philip madsen <pma15027@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 6:45:13 PM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Every duty had its own own bugle call
cop out dodging the issue.
I dont understand what you mean that is a cop out..or what your point is
here...I have and do argue for free will ...but......
So do I Allen, and I do not deny we exercise it, what Iam saying is that maybe
if we were created with enough equal intelligence, and given equal information,
many more would chose differently..
Yet we have a saint called Therese, who gave a lot of people hope.. I hope not
a false hope.. She teaches, Some people are a bucket and some a thimble.. When
full, both are full.. I leave you with a few of her thoughts, which have been
passed as true to Catholic dogma. ..
" I wondered for a long time why God has preferences, why all souls don't
treceive an equal amount of graces. ...His extraordinary favors, for instance
St's Paul and Augustine, and yet why poor savages died in great numbers without
even having heard the name of God pronounced.. ....
"Jesus deigned to teach me this mystery. .....how the splendour of the rose and
the whiteness of the Lily do not take away the perfume of the little violet or
the delightful simplicity of the daisy.
" and so it is in the world of souls, Jesus' garden. He willed to create great
souls comparable to Lilies and Roses, but He created smaller ones, and these
must be content to be daisies or violets destined to give joy to God's glances
when He looks down at His feet.
" I understood too, that Our Lord's love is revealed as perfectly in the most
simple soul that resists His grace in nothing, as in the most excellent
soul......in fact, since love is to humble oneself, if all souls resembled
those of the holy doctors who illumined the Church with the clarity of their
teachings, it seems God would not have to descend so low when coming to their
hearts. But he created the child who knows only how to make feeble cries heard;
He has created the poor savage who has nothing but the natural law to guide
him. It is to their hearts that God deigns to lower Himself. These are the wild
flowers whose simplicity attracts Him.
" Just as the sun shines simultaneously on the tall cedars and on each little
flower as though it were alone on the earth, so Our Lord is occupied
particularly with each soul as though there were no others like it. ...."
Philip.
----- Original Message -----
From: Allen Daves
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 11:13 AM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Every duty had its own own bugle call
I dont understand what you mean that is a cop out..or what your point is
here...I have and do argue for free will ...but......
1. this is not a free will debate..
2. I address the argument from the only two posibilites that exist in Theology
today.....I argue from both postions so as not to pick one over the other and
engage that debate all over again here it is not nessisary.........either
theological position has a ultimate logical conclusion...im only pointing out
thoses conclusions for both postions...im not taking one over the other
here.......it is not a cop out but rather a comprehensive expose of the
issue.....?????
3. in any case what I point out holds true particulaly if you hold to no free
will.......but Phil since you being the Good Catholic you are...choke..:-) you
do not argue the position from wich i was addressing I dont see how you can
protest a non relevant arguement to your postion....???? ...My point was that
either postion "the no free will " or "free will" theology position can yeild
any other ultimate meaningfull conclusions....at least not logicaly....
----- Original Message ----
From: philip madsen <pma15027@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 4:53:33 PM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Every duty had its own own bugle call
If God had created man with no free will then....Allen
Thats a cop out Allen and you should know it.. Its the same cop out the
Catholic Church promotes, and it holds no ice with me...
If every created soul had the same vision and awareness of God in person, that
Adam had, actually a daily conversation in real terms no hidden talking to
ourselves schemozzle, then I doubt even Paul would be the atheist he is today.
Mankind were and are deprived of the one thing that would have kept billions on
the straight and narrow.. The certain knowledge and presence of their creator.
In Heaven only half the angels rebelled.. On Earth when Jesus was there, many
many were saved. In fact most that actually saw, and talked and walked with
Him.. Only after the magic was taken away, did the failures return.. Even some
of the Romans killing Christ became perfect.
Like I said, free will is nothing in the face of insufficient and missing data.
When Jesus left the world, we had Magnus the magician still doing tricks, and
he is still here doing them, whilst God has been doing nothing. But what of
Judas? He saw it all.. What was wrong with him? He had to be brain dead!
Created that way? Like Lucifer.. a flawed product. If it was a case of free
will, I can see only one explanation.. Maybe Judas was not impressed with any
miracles.. Perhaps another Magnus was around who could do bigger and better..
You guys have got no case.. I think its time you took instruction in the Roman
Catholic Church... Too late its disappeared..
Philip.
----- Original Message -----
From: Allen Daves
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 8:59 AM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Every duty had its own own bugle call
God created trillions and trillions of people....
The greatest majority of whom are failures such that only a few are chosen..
the rest he hates forever.
The question may be asked, but not allowed. Who is to blame for this massive
failure?
If God had created man with no free will then God but then could you realy Call
it a failure?.....If that was his plan?.....on the other hand, if God Created
man with a free will then man is to blame for the failure of his own
choices......That is why i addressed choice 1.options 2.ability to exiercise
the options.. if there was no forbiden tree to eat from there would have been
no choice....if God did not give man the ability to exercise the choice there
would have been no choice...........If man has a choice then God cannot be
blamed for man's own choices/ failure....If man does not have a choice then
there is no failure, only God's master plan....nothing more then triming the
hedges/ prunning the rose gardens and cutting down the beautifull grass when he
so chooses.......????
In short... either ther is no way to define it as a failure ........or........
the failure is ours!
----- Original Message ----
From: philip madsen <pma15027@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 1:17:11 PM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Every duty had its own own bugle call
Your objection does not negate or address the fact that as below........
Allen.
Allen, this debate is not about me or you or salvation. We each do that for
ourselves. Its not even an objection. This is about rational scientific
reasoning as to why. (though I will cover this next)
When a truthful fact is unpalatable no one wants to hear it or think of it.
Everyone here has ignored a fact I stated. I will state it again in simple
terms.
From the Christian Bible/religion:
God created trillions and trillions of people....
The greatest majority of whom are failures such that only a few are chosen..
the rest he hates forever.
The question may be asked, but not allowed. Who is to blame for this massive
failure?
Philip.
I'm still mystified as to what this means:
Every duty had its own own bugle call
but it sounds good
----- Original Message -----
From: Allen Daves
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 5:32 AM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Every duty had its own own bugle call
Your objection does not negate or address the fact that
1.truth whatever it is is intrinsic to itself not me or you.
2. If you philip say that you accept Christ then you must accept his words...He
is the way and the truth and if you seek him you will find him......not budda!
You are confusing every thing that is true in the universe with the truth that
brings salvation...you dont have to know every thing in the universe or oevery
truth in the universe to obtain salvation from the one you seek it form...JESUS
CHRIST....nor do you have to know every true thing about Christ to have the
truth...i personly dont know the truth of the color of cloths he wore...????
----- Original Message ----
From: philip madsen <pma15027@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 11:49:34 AM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Every duty had its own own bugle call
But Allen, that is not an answer.. If it is you who have found the TRUTH
through seeking, then no one else here has. If I have it, then still no one
else has found it. Maybe nobody has it.
Don't you see how meaningless and useless the promise is? Its about as valuable
as the one which promises you can tell that mountain to move, and it will
move.. Has that ever been done ever? There is no way, save a bolt of
lightening and a pillar of flame from Heaven, to confirm what you found... Oh
yes there are plenty of excuses that may fool you into believing it, but
everybody has a great number of conficting proofs of that sort.
Talking about pillars of flame, how about a real audio voice in your head. Back
at the Tokyo exhibition, many decades ago, it was demonstrated where two
soundless ultrasonic waves one modulated with audio, were beamed directly into
the position your head was, and you in that position heard the voice of God,
and no-one else heard a thing.. Old hat, but quickly confiscated, never to be
seen again, except we now have a spate of Islamic suicide bombers, and drugged
out school kids obediently shooting up and killing people because they heard
God telling them what to do... And they really did hear him...
Oh what a joyful experience to be confirmed in this way, for the unenlightened
anyway.. You see, Neville would know it was not God, because his God does not
kill like that..But thats just a nice feeling wish. He cannot be absolutely
sure. "Vengeance is mine" sayeth the Lord..
You would not kill, saying it is the voice of the Devil not God. But I would
say someone has some electronic equipment nearby...
Philip.
----- Original Message -----
From: Allen Daves
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 2:25 AM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Every duty had its own own bugle call
Why bull?..again context is everything...Did Christ come to preach islam or
hindu or somthing else?..Chriat is not saying what ever you find will be ok
with God as long as you seek!?......He is saying that if you look for him/
truth the words of life and truth you will find them........ the importaince of
not taking a few words or Christ external of all of his words and developing a
Gospel out of it.....It would be just as erroneous to take the instructions of
employer out of context when he states..." well if you dont feel good just go
home".......If you dont put that statement into its context I could attempt to
use that for any and every case when and where i did not feel good....come guys
use the same approach to Christ as you would any other real person......There
is the imediate context and there is also the "big piture"
context...............I bet none of you have any problems making the
distinctions or "figuring it out" at work or anywhere else
for that matter.....? ..That is the point....."seek and you will
find."................not find what you want then "call it good" coz you
"seeked it"....!?.
----- Original Message ----
From: philip madsen <pma15027@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2008 6:04:04 PM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Every duty had its own own bugle call
In my defence, however, I would argue that this is what 'Jesus' stresses by
seemingly repeating his admonition to seek: "Ask and it will be given to you;
seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone
who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be
opened." (1st canonical gospel 7:7,8, NIV.) Neville
With regret, even Catholics believe this, but to me its all bull..
If a child of Islam seeks and believes, he finds Islam, a Hindu, hinduism, an
Angilcan the church of England, and a Catholic the Roman Church and so on..
The evidence everywhere says that this does not work...diversity in
contradiction cannot be right.. unity in diversity is a contradiction.
For elsewhere Jesus says, "I chose you. " not you chose me...and elsewhere
many are called, but FEW are chosen. and again, if you accept Paul, "as he
chose us in Him before the foundation of the world.."
Seek and ye shall find.. Neville, Jack, and Phil and Dave etc all feel they
have found the truth, yet only ONE, or NONE, can have it. And going on the
averages against the trillions of created souls, NONE is the most likely among
our little group and the entire world today.
14 How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few
there are that find it!
What a dismal and unhappy creation. What a promise? Its like saying you might
win the lottery.. Worse.. the averages of chance for the whole human race in
all of time are far worse.
Yet not liking it cannot change it. Not Neville. Not I. Its a stupid scientist
who says He does not exist. Its the height of stupidity and arrogant pride to
claim such perfection in a matter where you do not find out you are wrong till
its too late..
I'm not so perfect. I'll take some insurance thankyou .. I'll buy a ticket....
and try to pay my premiums every year.
Philip.
for some relief I have a question for the astronomers next....
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