Color reset..?......me in blue? Allen, Enough colours - especially after your pale blue! I now see what you are trying to get at with the clockwork orange "example," but the essence of the aether argument is what effect the aether would have on anything moving through it. The aether would have to carry the object along in one instance, but also have no impeding effect on the object going against the aether (this is what I believe Martin and I are talking about). Just as in a stream all objecst do not move at the same rate. There are other factors in play.....I think those factors can be akin to the same factors that affect objects in stagnate and stream waterways....in terms of curents, mass, volume and wave forms all interacting together Water is basically incompressible, so the body of water in front of the boat acts in such a way as to stop the boat, although a water current would carry the boat along with it. vibrations in water will affect the motions of objects/ alge, micro organisms and particles in the water but not necessarily boats and ships.....However, large vibrations cause tidal waves and affect small objects different then larger mor volumous objects...... I have no problem with this, of course, but this is where the analogy ends when solid matter, rather than deBroglie wavelength "particles," are considered in an aether. I am not addressing deDroglie wavelength particles they are theoretical specifics i am not ready to take on. I am using basic experiment and observations to deduce a fluid like medium (AKA aether) that is causing all of those effects that are similar to other observable reproducable fluid like qualities.........I am starting with basic actual observations on light and spinning gyros to extrapolate the fundamental nature of the aether not first jump to particles of infinite density and try to attempt to work backwards.... The fact is O& E in the ordinary world as well as with light and gyros indicate that what ever this medium is it behaves at least thus far like a fluid.. Gravity behaves like a vibration in a medium presumably the same medium in question.....If we are to assume that the universe is not so strange as to be absurd or beyond any and all comprehension then it is reasonable to suggest that fluid (aether) might behave similar to other fluids in our everyday observable world..the experiments not just conjecture on particles and such do suggest that there are some very striking similarities what other similarities might we use to explain or hypothizie about its other functions that we cannot directly observe....? Having said that if MM is true then yes we can measure the aethers velocity about the earth but that does not dictate that there are no other currents or eddies out there particularly when no one has bothered to conduct MM anywhere else in the universe say at the Geo stat location...I don?t know all the answers I admit that but i am point out that there are reasonable conjecture based on what we have to date which is far more reasonable then the MS assertions which are contrary to the very O&E that are supposed to support them, unless of course you assume that MS is true first ans that what you really see is a MS assertion that although things may look like a duck quack like a duck walk like a duck they cant possibly be a duck because well...."science" demands...?...there is good reason to extrapolate theories of the aether in terms of a fluid the example to water i think is consistent with what experiments have actually been performed will that continue to hold true i don?t know...but if gravity is a vibration and celestial mechanics are due to fluid like currents on masses of certain thresholds again is a reproducible experimentally falsifiable theory where as a universe that never ends and looks the same form all points with in it is not falsifiable or verifiable.... if gravity is a "instantaneous" wave and the aether fluid like ..now we can begin to extrapolate the necessary density of this medium the Aether and the frequency of Gravity if the objects move via currents, with the currents. Further, all objects exhibit gravity at a given rate without moving the bodies out of their respective currents & or eddies... ... now we can begin to extrapolate the intensity of the gravity wave as a function of intensity, frequency and the rate........... I ask once again, where is your evidence (not assumptions) that light is deviated off course by some kind of E-W bias? I never said it deviated its course I said just the opposite that it does not deviate its course but rather although the direction of travel for the medium can and is measured (light not isotropic) and that motion and direction detected, the strait path for a laser holds true in water as well as the "aether"... therfore the fluid like nature of water is still a valid analogy... "Dr. Neville Jones" <ntj005@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: Allen, Enough colours - especially after your pale blue! I now see what you are trying to get at with the clockwork orange "example," but the essence of the aether argument is what effect the aether would have on anything moving through it. The aether would have to carry the object along in one instance, but also have no impeding effect on the object going against the aether (this is what I believe Martin and I are talking about). Water is basically incompressible, so the body of water in front of the boat acts in such a way as to stop the boat, although a water current would carry the boat along with it. I have no problem with this, of course, but this is where the analogy ends when solid matter, rather than deBroglie wavelength "particles," are considered in an aether. I ask once again, where is your evidence (not assumptions) that light is deviated off course by some kind of E-W bias? Neville. Allen Daves <allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: My responce to you in green....Me in Light blue In green response to me in Blue : Me in blue response to you in red Planets, stars, the Sun and the Moon are all moving not only with but through the aether, yet the movements of the heavens are like clockwork. There is no slowing down of these objects. I think you you looking at this backwards...If you take a steel rod and force it through a orange you can do that........ but if every thing observed were equivalent to pushing a rod through a orange then there would be no way to distinguish this from anything else because that is/ would be the normal resistance to all mechanics observed. We could theorize about what the orange is made of and what the nature of the force we are using is but at the end of the day it would just be normal with no metric by which to evaluate that force . Now take that rod and put it in a drill and cause it to spin it will go through the orange a little more readily..only now do we a point of reference from which to establish any meaningful measure of the force required in our everyday mechanical exercise. You can measure the natural resistance because you would have nothing to measure its against however in the DePalumer and Aspden motor we can see that the addtiona of spin makes pathways though the aether and can be explained/ correlate to at least some ordinary fluid /hydro-dynamic process.....Take a spinning rod place it in a liquid and spin at high velocity then disconnect the rod such that the rod free floats,,now the rod will eventually come to a standstill but there is still a vortex of water that won?t have enough force to spin the rod but will enable less force to be use to get the rod spinning again...this is experimentally reproducible and easily understood..now as for the Moon and stars they are travailing with the aether why would there be any resistance to the aether such that it would cause them to slow down or act like anything other then Clock work ? If a fluid is spinning or in motion a object will travel with it now some objects are smaller and denser while others are more massive but just as in the case of any river if you observe all objects in it do not travel at the same speed but neither do they all come to a stop because of the resistance to the water...I think you are looking at it backwards.. The objects in a river are all flowing in the same way as the river. Planets, for example, are not always flowing in the same way as the aether, but often against it. How do you know they are not flowing with the aether?....The aether although we may consider it "homogeneous" does not necessarily mean unidirectional. The "homogeneous" oceans have many different currents that run in different directions and in different layers although they are found in the same sea water that circulates throughout the oceans.. As for your example of the clockwork orange, I do not follow your reasoning. You would not/ could not objectively measure the resistance to the orange if everything were in a orange but as in the spinning gyroscope you can measure the difference in resistence spinning has on the resistance moving through a orange/ aether...if everything weighed as much as I do then there would be no point of reference that would give any meaning to 180lbs. How do you weigh the ultimate scale you weigh everything else against?..You cant use everything else you weighed on that scale to weigh itself, that has no meaning. That would still just be equivocating to itself which means what .....nothing objectively..? everything moving in the aether would must be measured against it so how do you measure the aether?..you cant directly but you can denote changes in it based on various criteria it is those changes that give comprehensible useful meaning to the aether...or you could just ignore those differences and say it does not exist at all, because without those differences there would be no objective meaning to it... resistance, viscosity, density or otherwise...?... That what MS attempts but that is not LO&E.. The resistance is there for sure but what you measure is something that causes less resistance such as a spinning object in the river not some resistance to the river that will eventually cause the objects to come to a stop or slow down....the currents and wave forms in the river have far more force in them then the water in a stagnate pond...There is resistance in both the river water and pond water but the resistance can really only be observed and measured in terms of change in motion within the river or pond because tho objects in it are travailing with it. The only resistance that can be measured is the observed fact that some objects do move faster then others Moon sun stars.. .......However, even in a pond that is perfectly still a small boat will drift almost indefinitely if pushed No, I not not think that it will. Please explain the physics behind your assumption of the continual drifting of the boat. not withstanding the other influences such as gravity and surface tension and such things about which we are attempting to ascertain about the aether itself in these very discussions............If there were no wave form created in front of the boat then there would be little to not resistance for the boat.......(take a boat and push it along a still body of water wach what hapens and how/when it slows down). The only idfference here with the aether is the energy threshold limits for any given wave form.....As I cited in the previous experiments they give us figures and observations to evaluate and measure those threshold limits in respect to ordinary matter........in fluids "resistance" is almost exclusively a function of the wave forms acting in any given fluid(s). Although the nature of any wave forms in a fluid medium are determined via the properties of the medium the fluid medium itself does not determine resistance only the nature of the wave forms travailing though a medium will. That is one of the most basic differences between a "solid" and a "fluid"..and there are all extremes in between.. the diference between solids and liquids is merely the energy thershold limit for any given waveform or matter to traverse it/through it.,,once that energy threshold limit is overcome the only issues to "resitance" is the type of wave forms created...this is why super cooled simcondutors become superconductors they lower the energy threshold limits for certain wave forms. until such time as some wave form created by its relative movement to the edge of the pond or some other object in the pond reflects back to eventually cause it to stop but the waves created by also allow it to resume with less force the initial force needed ..There is nothing new or different here......GRAVITY pushing waves! Furthermore, when I was associated with firing powerful lasers directly up through the atmosphere, I noticed no such tendency of light to deviate from its initial direction (other than random refraction of course). As for lasers they are disturbed in a measurable e-w direction way just as laser light is disturbed in a measurable way via a flowing river ( you can detect the direction of the river)but the direction of the beam itself is not altered if it originates in the water just as the direction of a beam is not altered in the aether. You are talking of the Arago effect of light going through glass, water, etc., which is completely different. Where is the evidence that light is bent with any form of E-W bias? If the aether behaves/ exhibits properties like a fluid (the afore mentioned experiments shows that it does) then it does not matter the principle is the same for the aether as it is for a laser in a river...motion affects the light not necessarily the path of light ..in the same way that in a river it clearly moves other objects in the river even in various eddies and such but the path of a laser is not affected. call it what you want but light does not behave the same as ordinary matter in any theorectical frame work based on O&E. We should be looking a it as a Hydrodynamic process waves and all................ Neville. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Try it now.