[bksvol-discuss] Re: Table Of Contents
- From: "Mayrie ReNae" <mayrierenae@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 17:27:14 -0800
Hi Judy!
You always give such great descriptions and analogies! We are truly lucky
to have you to help us understand things like this!
Mayrie
-----Original Message-----
From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Judy s.
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 3:03 PM
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Table Of Contents
LOL Evan! Here, I'll take some of the gauze out of my mouth and see if that
helps! lop-sided grin.
Great question about why it's hard to read a page number next to words for
us sighted folks.
I'm guessing it's difficult to read numbers scrunched up right next to words
at the end of a sentence partially because we train visual readers to
interpret those numbers as footnotes or as part of a "sentence." But for
some reason numbers right next to words don't jump out as being distinct
without that gap, if they are intended to impart that they are in fact
distinct.
Let me think - OK, see if this helps. Think of taking a bunch of marbles
that are all the same size and putting them in a row touching each other.
When you run your hand down the row they're distinct, but at the same time
you really kind of think of them as one continuous thing. Then take one
marble off of the end of the row and put it a few inches away from the rest
of the marbles. Then run your hand down the row of marbles again. Now that
end marble stands out from the rest. It's the gap that makes that marble
distinct from the rest of the row. That's how separating a page number in a
table of contents from the chapter title help the visual reader distinctly
identify the number at the end of the words as something "different" than
just a numerical word that's part of a sentence.
Judy s.
EVAN REESE wrote:
> Judy, I can't understand a thing you're saying. You are completely
> incoherent. Just kidding.
>
> Other than that, I'll take your and Valerie's word that it is
> difficult to read a page number in a TOC with only a space between it
> and the title, although I will admit that I don't understand why this
> should be so. If you are reading the title of something, you would
> just see the page number after it, right? Why is that difficult? I am
> asking for information, not for argumentation. If it is difficult to
> read a number with only a space between it and a word, why is it not
> equally difficult to read words with only a single space between them?
> As I said, I am looking for insight, not doubting the word of those
> who actually read with sight.
>
> Thanks for any help you can give to further my knowledge on this.
>
> Evan
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Judy s."
> <cherryjam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:41 PM
> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Table Of Contents
>
>
>> I agree with Valerie. It is a torture to figure out tables of
>> contents visually with just the single space. I'm perfectly happy
>> with an ellipsis instead of the space, as an idea. I can't see any
>> way that trying to figuour out how many periods to put in to make the
>> right margin on each line, as is done with a printed book, will make
>> sense or be anything but a nightmare to do if you're blind. Having
>> an ellipsis in makes it perfectly readable for me visually.
>>
>> Golly, I hope I'm making sense. I had some major dental surgery today
>> and we had to use enough anesthesia to bring an elephant down. So
>> I'm a bit loopy! grin.
>>
>> Judy s.
>>
>> Valerie Maples wrote:
>>> Ideally you should have enough periods so the right margin is even
>>> for visual scanning of page numbers as a list, but an ellipsis
>>> would be better than a single space. that is outright torture to
>>> find anything.
>>>
>>> Valerie
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11 04, 2009, at 11:17 AM, Mayrie ReNae wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Debby,
>>>>
>>>> I'd like more commentary from our sighted print disabled readers to
>>>> know whether this will be helpful before I change my practises.
>>>> I'm happy to change, as you are, but not willing to make a
>>>> permanent change until or unless it is commented upon by more than
>>>> one person.
>>>>
>>>> Vallerie, Doug, Judy, anyone else who is print disabled, but
>>>> sighted want to comment on this?
>>>>
>>>> Mayrie
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Debby
>>>> Franson
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 8:58 AM
>>>> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Table Of Contents
>>>>
>>>> Hi Mayrie!
>>>>
>>>> Should I insert elipses in the table of contents in "Rebel With a
>>>> Cause"?
>>>> It wouldn't be a bother.
>>>>
>>>> Debby
>>>>
>>>> At 07:50 AM 11/3/2009, Mayrie ReNae wrote
>>>>> Hi Melissa,
>>>>>
>>>>> That's a great idea! Let's see if it would work for folks like
>>>>> Valerie's Nichole, since Valerie was the one requesting a change.
>>>>> If it would work, I don't see how it would go against anything
>>>>> bookshare has
>>>> ever said.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mayrie
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Melissa
>>>>> Smith
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 5:07 AM
>>>>> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Table Of Contents
>>>>>
>>>>> I've been thinking about Valerye's concerns about the table of
>>>>> contents.
>>>>> I got to thinking about how Braille books have a series of dots
>>>>> between the chapter title and page number. So, I was wondering if
>>>>> inserting an ellipses between the chapter title and page number
>>>>> would be an appropriate
>>>> solution.
>>>>> An ellipses will be recognized and kept by bookshare's tools, and
>>>>> will give some separation between chapter title and page number
>>>>> for those that need that. It wouldn't be spoken by most screen
>>>>> readers, so wouldn't interfere with anybody's listening pleasure.
>>>>> Finally, since Braille readers are used to the series of dots
>>>>> between chapter title and page number, it wouldn't seem unusual to
>>>>> them either.
>>>>> So, do you think this would be acceptable and not violate any
>>>>> bookshare rules?
>>>>>
>>>>> Melissa
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Enjoy what you have rather than desiring what you don't have. Just
>>>> dreaming about nice things is meaningless; it is like chasing the
>>>> wind.--Ecclesiastes
>>>> 6:9 NLT
>>>>
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