• From: "Judy s." <cherryjam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
• To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
• Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 17:02:41 -0600

LOL Evan! Here, I'll take some of the gauze out of my mouth and see if that helps! lop-sided grin.

```
```
Great question about why it's hard to read a page number next to words for us sighted folks.
```
```
I'm guessing it's difficult to read numbers scrunched up right next to words at the end of a sentence partially because we train visual readers to interpret those numbers as footnotes or as part of a "sentence." But for some reason numbers right next to words don't jump out as being distinct without that gap, if they are intended to impart that they are in fact distinct.
```
```
Let me think - OK, see if this helps. Think of taking a bunch of marbles that are all the same size and putting them in a row touching each other. When you run your hand down the row they're distinct, but at the same time you really kind of think of them as one continuous thing. Then take one marble off of the end of the row and put it a few inches away from the rest of the marbles. Then run your hand down the row of marbles again. Now that end marble stands out from the rest. It's the gap that makes that marble distinct from the rest of the row. That's how separating a page number in a table of contents from the chapter title help the visual reader distinctly identify the number at the end of the words as something "different" than just a numerical word that's part of a sentence.
```
Judy s.

EVAN REESE wrote:
```
Judy, I can't understand a thing you're saying. You are completely incoherent. Just kidding.
```
```
Other than that, I'll take your and Valerie's word that it is difficult to read a page number in a TOC with only a space between it and the title, although I will admit that I don't understand why this should be so. If you are reading the title of something, you would just see the page number after it, right? Why is that difficult? I am asking for information, not for argumentation. If it is difficult to read a number with only a space between it and a word, why is it not equally difficult to read words with only a single space between them? As I said, I am looking for insight, not doubting the word of those who actually read with sight.
```
Thanks for any help you can give to further my knowledge on this.

Evan

----- Original Message ----- From: "Judy s." <cherryjam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:41 PM

```
I agree with Valerie. It is a torture to figure out tables of contents visually with just the single space. I'm perfectly happy with an ellipsis instead of the space, as an idea. I can't see any way that trying to figuour out how many periods to put in to make the right margin on each line, as is done with a printed book, will make sense or be anything but a nightmare to do if you're blind. Having an ellipsis in makes it perfectly readable for me visually.
```
```
Golly, I hope I'm making sense. I had some major dental surgery today and we had to use enough anesthesia to bring an elephant down. So I'm a bit loopy! grin.
```
Judy s.

Valerie Maples wrote:
```
Ideally you should have enough periods so the right margin is even for visual scanning of page numbers as a list, but an ellipsis would be better than a single space. that is outright torture to find anything.
```
Valerie

On 11 04, 2009, at 11:17 AM, Mayrie ReNae wrote:

```
```Hi Debby,

```
I'd like more commentary from our sighted print disabled readers to know whether this will be helpful before I change my practises. I'm happy to
```change, as you are, but not willing to make a permanent change until or
unless it is commented upon by more than one person.

```
Vallerie, Doug, Judy, anyone else who is print disabled, but sighted want to
```comment on this?

Mayrie

-----Original Message-----
From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Debby Franson
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 8:58 AM
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Hi Mayrie!

```
```It wouldn't be a bother.

Debby

At 07:50 AM 11/3/2009, Mayrie ReNae wrote
```
```Hi Melissa,

That's a great idea!  Let's see if it would work for folks like
Valerie's Nichole, since Valerie was the one requesting a change.  If
```
it would work, I don't see how it would go against anything bookshare has
```ever said.
```
```
Mayrie

-----Original Message-----
From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
```
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Melissa Smith
```Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 5:07 AM
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

```
```the chapter title and page number. So, I was wondering if inserting an
```
ellipses between the chapter title and page number would be an appropriate
```solution.
```
```An ellipses will be recognized and kept by bookshare's tools, and will
give some separation between chapter title and page number for those
that need that. It wouldn't be spoken by most screen readers, so
wouldn't interfere with anybody's listening pleasure.
Finally, since Braille readers are used to the series of dots between
```
chapter title and page number, it wouldn't seem unusual to them either. So, do you think this would be acceptable and not violate any bookshare
```rules?

Melissa

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