[bksvol-discuss] Re: Table Of Contents
- From: Rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx
- To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 19:49:01 EST
I will defer to your explanation because it is just as good if not better
than any one I might come up with, but I doubt that it is just a matter of
how sighted people are trained. The question can be asked, why are there
tables in the first place. I think it has something to do with the way visual
information is processed by the brain. That is, it is in the wiring. There are
certain kinds of information that can be processed a lot more quickly with
just a very brief glance when it is presented in a form with the spaces and
arrangement that is found in a table. A similar thing can be said about bar
graphs and pie charts for relaying the concept of comparative proportions
that could still be explained in a narrative form. That is, the narrative can
be used to explain the same information, but you have to think about it to
get it as opposed to just glancing and getting it instantly. It is another
example of a picture, even though a table is not quite a picture, being worth a
thousand words. And even though a table is not a picture, it does have a
visual form that informs in a similar, if crude, manner that a picture does.
"I have no country to fight for; my country is
the earth, and I am a citizen of the world." Eugene V. Debs
The Militant: http://www.themilitant.com Pathfinder Press:
http://www.pathfinderpress.com
Granma International: http://www.granma.cu/ingles/index.html
_
table with 2 columns and 6 rows
Subj:
[bksvol-discuss] Re: Table Of Contents
Date:
11/4/2009 6:03:27 PM Eastern Standard Time
From:
cherryjam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Reply-to:
bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To:
bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent from the Internet
(Details)
table end
LOL Evan! Here, I'll take some of the gauze out of my mouth and
see if that helps! lop-sided grin.
Great question about why it's hard to read a page number next to
words for us sighted folks.
I'm guessing it's difficult to read numbers scrunched up right
next to words at the end of a sentence partially because we train
visual readers to interpret those numbers as footnotes or as part
of a "sentence." But for some reason numbers right next to words
don't jump out as being distinct without that gap, if they are
intended to impart that they are in fact distinct.
Let me think - OK, see if this helps. Think of taking a bunch of
marbles that are all the same size and putting them in a row
touching each other. When you run your hand down the row they're
distinct, but at the same time you really kind of think of them
as one continuous thing. Then take one marble off of the end of
the row and put it a few inches away from the rest of the
marbles. Then run your hand down the row of marbles again. Now
that end marble stands out from the rest. It's the gap that
makes that marble distinct from the rest of the row. That's how
separating a page number in a table of contents from the chapter
title help the visual reader distinctly identify the number at
the end of the words as something "different" than just a
numerical word that's part of a sentence.
Judy s.
EVAN REESE wrote:
> Judy, I can't understand a thing you're saying. You are completely
> incoherent. Just kidding.
>
> Other than that, I'll take your and Valerie's word that it is difficult
> to read a page number in a TOC with only a space between it and the
> title, although I will admit that I don't understand why this should be
> so. If you are reading the title of something, you would just see the
> page number after it, right? Why is that difficult? I am asking for
> information, not for argumentation. If it is difficult to read a number
> with only a space between it and a word, why is it not equally difficult
> to read words with only a single space between them? As I said, I am
> looking for insight, not doubting the word of those who actually read
> with sight.
>
> Thanks for any help you can give to further my knowledge on this.
>
> Evan
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Judy s." <cherryjam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:41 PM
> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Table Of Contents
>
>
>> I agree with Valerie. It is a torture to figure out tables of
>> contents visually with just the single space. I'm perfectly happy
>> with an ellipsis instead of the space, as an idea. I can't see any
>> way that trying to figuour out how many periods to put in to make the
>> right margin on each line, as is done with a printed book, will make
>> sense or be anything but a nightmare to do if you're blind. Having an
>> ellipsis in makes it perfectly readable for me visually.
>>
>> Golly, I hope I'm making sense. I had some major dental surgery today
>> and we had to use enough anesthesia to bring an elephant down. So I'm
>> a bit loopy! grin.
>>
>> Judy s.
>>
>> Valerie Maples wrote:
>>> Ideally you should have enough periods so the right margin is even
>>> for visual scanning of page numbers as a list, but an ellipsis would
>>> be better than a single space. that is outright torture to find
>>> anything.
>>>
>>> Valerie
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11 04, 2009, at 11:17 AM, Mayrie ReNae wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Debby,
>>>>
>>>> I'd like more commentary from our sighted print disabled readers to
>>>> know
>>>> whether this will be helpful before I change my practises. I'm
>>>> happy to
>>>> change, as you are, but not willing to make a permanent change until
or
>>>> unless it is commented upon by more than one person.
>>>>
>>>> Vallerie, Doug, Judy, anyone else who is print disabled, but sighted
>>>> want to
>>>> comment on this?
>>>>
>>>> Mayrie
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Debby
Franson
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 8:58 AM
>>>> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Table Of Contents
>>>>
>>>> Hi Mayrie!
>>>>
>>>> Should I insert elipses in the table of contents in "Rebel With a
>>>> Cause"?
>>>> It wouldn't be a bother.
>>>>
>>>> Debby
>>>>
>>>> At 07:50 AM 11/3/2009, Mayrie ReNae wrote
>>>>> Hi Melissa,
>>>>>
>>>>> That's a great idea! Let's see if it would work for folks like
>>>>> Valerie's Nichole, since Valerie was the one requesting a change. If
>>>>> it would work, I don't see how it would go against anything
>>>>> bookshare has
>>>> ever said.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mayrie
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Melissa
>>>>> Smith
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 5:07 AM
>>>>> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Table Of Contents
>>>>>
>>>>> I've been thinking about Valerye's concerns about the table of
>>>>> contents.
>>>>> I got to thinking about how Braille books have a series of dots
>>>>> between
>>>>> the chapter title and page number. So, I was wondering if inserting
an
>>>>> ellipses between the chapter title and page number would be an
>>>>> appropriate
>>>> solution.
>>>>> An ellipses will be recognized and kept by bookshare's tools, and
will
>>>>> give some separation between chapter title and page number for those
>>>>> that need that. It wouldn't be spoken by most screen readers, so
>>>>> wouldn't interfere with anybody's listening pleasure.
>>>>> Finally, since Braille readers are used to the series of dots between
>>>>> chapter title and page number, it wouldn't seem unusual to them
>>>>> either.
>>>>> So, do you think this would be acceptable and not violate any
>>>>> bookshare
>>>>> rules?
>>>>>
>>>>> Melissa
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Enjoy what you have rather than desiring what you don't have. Just
>>>> dreaming
>>>> about nice things is meaningless; it is like chasing the
>>>> wind.--Ecclesiastes
>>>> 6:9 NLT
>>>>
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