Hi, Evan! Because I work with emerging literacy, and a secondary focus on learning disabilities, visual presentation is important in building skills. Typically speaking in teaching a child how to orient themselves to a table of contents the chapter number is on the left, usually followed by a couple of spaces or a tab, then the title of the chapter, and then usually some distance away from it on the right margin of the page is the actual page number. By making the three elements of a single line distinct, you teach children how to scan in not only a horizontal linear pattern, but a vertical pattern as well. When there is too much information into smaller space children with learning disabilities tend to mangle the information and not be able to retrieve the details. It can make it more difficult for an adult with dyslexia because they can then have a greater chance of confusing the numbers with letters. There are also a number of visual learning disabilities were spatial relationships are important. By controlling how the information is formatted you improve the odds of a child successfully learning how to not only differentiate but digest the information that is present. It is incredibly difficult to teach advanced functions of computer searching to kids who have these learning disabilities since they often have problems but spelling correctly or with number order. It is also an additional skill layered on top of another skill at you are trying to create, which can be difficult. I am sure I am not making much sense, but I can tell you as an adult with dyslexia, if the information is too close together, I take about five times as long to sort the information. Ideally there should be a much greater distance and the page numbers should online in a column, but separation of any type is better than the same thing used to indicate a change of words. I am trying to learn as much as I can about why presentation matters and how it is effected by those who listen as well as those who read in Braille, and I don't want anyone to think that I am being a bully and constantly reshaping arguments about formatting, but because so much of Bookshare's current efforts are directed toward their educational grant, I think we do ourselves well to continue to meet the needs of these kids as best we can. If we strip all of the useful tools of the visual presentation in effort to "standardize", we may remove the ability of some students to develop independent literacy skills outside of software. Until our society has moved to a format where all text is available electronically, books, newspapers, and snail mail remain a reality that we need to teach students to develop techniques to handle. I am all for tools of compromise as long as meaningful information can still be derived for the target populations. Individuals with visual impairments have had alternate formats for decades, but it really is in its infancy for students with more severe physical disabilities or learning disabilities. In truth, many texts would be better handled if they could be formatted both ways, instead of a unified format that is then translated. Since that is completely unlikely to happen, the next best thing we can have is considerate dialogues trying to find common ground. Thank you for allowing me to participate in these discussions. I have to get Nichole ready for bed, so please forgive me if there are any speech recognition errors in this long missive. I promise you it is better than anything that I could have pecked out and taken an hour to correct. Wink. Thanks! Valerie > -----Original Message----- > From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On > Behalf Of EVAN REESE > Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:33 PM > To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Table Of Contents > > Judy, I can't understand a thing you're saying. You are completely > incoherent. Just kidding. > > Other than that, I'll take your and Valerie's word that it is difficult to > read a page number in a TOC with only a space between it and the title, > although I will admit that I don't understand why this should be so. If you > are reading the title of something, you would just see the page number after > it, right? Why is that difficult? I am asking for information, not for > argumentation. If it is difficult to read a number with only a space between > it and a word, why is it not equally difficult to read words with only a > single space between them? As I said, I am looking for insight, not doubting > the word of those who actually read with sight. > > Thanks for any help you can give to further my knowledge on this. > > Evan > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Judy s." <cherryjam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> > To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:41 PM > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Table Of Contents > > > >I agree with Valerie. It is a torture to figure out tables of contents > >visually with just the single space. I'm perfectly happy with an ellipsis > >instead of the space, as an idea. I can't see any way that trying to > >figuour out how many periods to put in to make the right margin on each > >line, as is done with a printed book, will make sense or be anything but a > >nightmare to do if you're blind. Having an ellipsis in makes it perfectly > >readable for me visually. > > > > Golly, I hope I'm making sense. I had some major dental surgery today and > > we had to use enough anesthesia to bring an elephant down. So I'm a bit > > loopy! grin. > > > > Judy s. > > > > Valerie Maples wrote: > >> Ideally you should have enough periods so the right margin is even for > >> visual scanning of page numbers as a list, but an ellipsis would be > >> better than a single space. that is outright torture to find anything. > >> > >> Valerie > >> > >> > >> On 11 04, 2009, at 11:17 AM, Mayrie ReNae wrote: > >> > >>> Hi Debby, > >>> > >>> I'd like more commentary from our sighted print disabled readers to know > >>> whether this will be helpful before I change my practises. I'm happy to > >>> change, as you are, but not willing to make a permanent change until or > >>> unless it is commented upon by more than one person. > >>> > >>> Vallerie, Doug, Judy, anyone else who is print disabled, but sighted > >>> want to > >>> comment on this? > >>> > >>> Mayrie > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > >>> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Debby Franson > >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 8:58 AM > >>> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > >>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Table Of Contents > >>> > >>> Hi Mayrie! > >>> > >>> Should I insert elipses in the table of contents in "Rebel With a > >>> Cause"? > >>> It wouldn't be a bother. > >>> > >>> Debby > >>> > >>> At 07:50 AM 11/3/2009, Mayrie ReNae wrote > >>>> Hi Melissa, > >>>> > >>>> That's a great idea! Let's see if it would work for folks like > >>>> Valerie's Nichole, since Valerie was the one requesting a change. If > >>>> it would work, I don't see how it would go against anything bookshare > >>>> has > >>> ever said. > >>>> > >>>> Mayrie > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > >>>> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Melissa Smith > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 5:07 AM > >>>> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > >>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Table Of Contents > >>>> > >>>> I've been thinking about Valerye's concerns about the table of > >>>> contents. > >>>> I got to thinking about how Braille books have a series of dots between > >>>> the chapter title and page number. So, I was wondering if inserting an > >>>> ellipses between the chapter title and page number would be an > >>>> appropriate > >>> solution. > >>>> An ellipses will be recognized and kept by bookshare's tools, and will > >>>> give some separation between chapter title and page number for those > >>>> that need that. It wouldn't be spoken by most screen readers, so > >>>> wouldn't interfere with anybody's listening pleasure. > >>>> Finally, since Braille readers are used to the series of dots between > >>>> chapter title and page number, it wouldn't seem unusual to them either. > >>>> So, do you think this would be acceptable and not violate any bookshare > >>>> rules? > >>>> > >>>> Melissa > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email to > >>>> bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > >>>> put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the subject line. To get a > >>>> list of available commands, put the word 'help' by itself in the > >>>> subject > >>> line. > >>>> > >>>> To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email to > >>>> bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > >>>> put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the subject line. To get a > >>>> list of available commands, put the word 'help' by itself in the > >>>> subject > >>> line. > >>>> > >>>> No virus found in this incoming message. > >>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > >>>> Version: 9.0.698 / Virus Database: 270.14.48/2479 - Release Date: > >>>> 11/03/09 13:38:00 > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Enjoy what you have rather than desiring what you don't have. Just > >>> dreaming > >>> about nice things is meaningless; it is like chasing the > >>> wind.--Ecclesiastes > >>> 6:9 NLT > >>> > >>> To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email to > >>> bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > >>> put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the subject line. To get a list > >>> of > >>> available commands, put the word 'help' by itself in the subject line. > >>> > >>> To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email to > >>> bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > >>> put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the subject line. To get a list > >>> of available commands, put the word 'help' by itself in the subject > >>> line. > >>> > >> > >> To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email to > >> bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > >> put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the subject line. To get a list > >> of available commands, put the word 'help' by itself in the subject line. > >> > >> > > To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email to > > bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the subject line. To get a list > > of available commands, put the word 'help' by itself in the subject line. > > > > To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email to > bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the subject line. To get a list of available > commands, put the word 'help' by itself in the subject line. To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email to bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the subject line. To get a list of available commands, put the word 'help' by itself in the subject line.