Very well stated!!! Maybe this should be the year to see this kind of judging become the norm. In your example the judge obviously saw the good qualities of the dog in its class, but felt that he/she needed to make sure that ringside also saw them in the winners class. Lyn ~ Cherlyn Shepherds In a message dated 1/1/2005 9:55:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, hckryhillgsd@xxxxxxxxxxxxx writes: There is an implication..that the older dog..and the 12-18 are nearly identical in structure and movement...now..if the 12-18 is the better dog...and just because the older dog is better handled..is this about finding the best dog..or finding the best presented dog? There was a case in E TN where a judge really liked a young bitch...in winners..the youngster was taken in by a young boy...the bitch initially did not perform well with the boy..but the judge was knowledgeable enough to recognize that although the older bitches were presented better..their structure and movement were not comparable . The judge..recognizing the inexperience of the young boy..and of the young bitch.gave them a reasonable number of chances to get their act together...All the judge needed to see was a good pass..they accomplished this with a couple of tries and with the patience of the judge!. The young bitch deservedly went WB. the alternative..was to give perhaps in my opinion a lesser bitch the points..because of professional presentation.Why does one need to see round after round of gaiting in winners if all things are not pretty darn equal? I can see a run off between 2 outstanding dogs...but to put up a lesser dog because of presentation only..and miss the spectacular dog..is a travesty....I have a saying.."study long..study wrong..." To me, a knowledgeable judge will find the better animal... despite presentation..You cannot deny good movement and structure...takes a lot more "professional" handling to show a mediocre dog.to his best advantage...much less to present a dog that is outstanding C.Grainger ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2004. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - http://www.showgsd.org ============================================================================