[rollei_list] Re: Meters and Film
- From: Eric Goldstein <egoldste@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: rollei_list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 16:38:28 -0400
I hear you... Incidence is more reliable for you, Carlos. I realize
you were not saying that reflectance metering is wrong (which would be
kind of silly now, wouldn't it?) You were just expressing a
preference. Your fine images speak for themselves.
We do want to keep accurate information on the list, and that is
really the only point of my contributions... not to persuade anyone to
adopt any particular type of methodology. It was well known that
Weston had little idea of how to use an exposure meter for a good
portion of his career... we should all be as talented a shooter as he.
So there are all kinds of different strategies leading to successful
photographs.
As for experience... let me pass a bit of mine along. In my work, I've
looked at thousands of portfolios and reels, and hired/worked with
hundreds of photographers and film-makers. In my experience, some of
those who've been at it the longest are the most inept. For instance,
right now I am working with a client who is a major US brand-name
institution. I am consulting with them to guide them in establishing a
digital archive of their collection. Before hiring me, they worked
with a major, name brand photographer with a world-wide reputation.
You would likely know his name, the publications where he is routinely
published, and his books. This man, with all his alleged experience
and reputation, steered these people so wrong and gave them such poor
aesthetic advise and technical guidance that they wasted well over six
figures in getting the project going and had to basically start over.
So I hold no special place for "pros," teachers, or those who claim
mountains of experience. Some of them make all kinds of mistakes and
disseminate all kinds of misinformation.
Eric Goldstein
--
On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 2:57 PM, Carlos Manuel
Freaza<cmfreaza@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Eric, after almost 40 years taking photographs using different film
> types,different cameras, different processes, different papers, different
> monitors, enlargers, printers and scanners, the few times I did not get a
> right or close to right exposure using the incident light method measurement
> happened when the angle of light measurement was not right.
> BTW it does not mean the reflective method is wrong, it works for a lot of
> situations and in fact I use it sometimes, last time I used it was to measure
> the artificial light in the church indoors, an image I posted during the
> week-end, the exposure (4 sec at f/8)was very right. My point is that the
> incident light measurement is more reliable in general than the reflective
> method based on my experience.
>
> Carlos
> --- El lun 31-ago-09, Eric Goldstein <egoldste@xxxxxxxxx> escribió:
>
>
>> No Carlos, I'm afraid this is not
>> correct... It is reflectance which
>> is the key factor in exposure, and it is easy to construct
>> any number
>> thought experiments to prove this. You can easily construct
>> a scenario
>> in which the incidence meter shows plenty of light, yet the
>> indicated
>> exposure for the scene you are shooting would be placed to
>> low or to
>> high within the film's characteristic curve for a decent
>> exposure.
>> Many a film-maker has been burned by a change in propping
>> or position
>> because they failed to account for the effect on
>> reflectance which
>> resulted.
>>
>> I suspect that you mean that IN-CAMERA meters must be
>> reflectance
>> meters, which is correct.
>>
>> Unnecessary, ideal, or somewhere in between, the importance
>> of the
>> Zone System is the recognition that it is reflectance which
>> we are
>> capturing on film, and on our retinas for that matter, and
>> incidence
>> is only a rough guage of what might be an appropriate
>> exposure given
>> average or normal situations.
>>
>> While I know the Zone System well, it really has no analog
>> in the
>> digital domain because in the system exposure and
>> development work
>> hand in hand to achieve contrast and texture. Some may say
>> that post
>> processing RAW files is analogous to traditional film
>> development; I
>> don't agree with this POV.
>>
>> BTW the vast majority of the time, the exposure table on
>> the film box
>> will give you the same reading as your incidence meter, so
>> if you
>> really want to dumb down the process, you can always go
>> that route...
>>
>>
>> Eric Goldstein
>>
>> --
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 2:14 PM, Carlos Manuel
>> Freaza<cmfreaza@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> wrote:
>> > Using incident light reads, the light inciding on the
>> subject is only one independent regarding the light sources,
>> the way the subject reflects this light and the way the
>> photographic material registers this light can vary of
>> course, and you can see the differences in the final
>> results, however the amount of light inciding or _falling_
>> on the subject is the main factor to make the potograph (and
>> one of reasons it is measured for movies)independent about
>> its reflectance and you measured that incident or falling
>> light, your exposure never could be wrong if you measured
>> the light for the right angle of incidence on the dome
>> considering subject and camera position.
>> >
>> > Cameras (film or digital) need to use the reflective
>> method by definition, because the incident light is referred
>> regarding the camera position, the spot metering (a wanted
>> and necessary feature for a complex camera), works like an
>> incident light read, and it demonstrates the incident light
>> read is very exact for most situations if you have a good
>> lightmeter.
>> > There is something attractive about the Zone system
>> intellectually, it attracts me from this point of view,
>> however several of the best photographers around the world
>> never used this system and I think it's an unnecessary
>> sophistication.
>> >
>> > --- El lun 31-ago-09, Eric Goldstein <egoldste@xxxxxxxxx>
>> escribió:
>> >
>> >
>> >> Hi Carlos -
>> >>
>> >> I think it depends upon your level of experience
>> and how
>> >> much you want
>> >> to think about exposure. The Zone system of course
>> relied
>> >> upon
>> >> multi-point reflectance spot metering. Modern
>> cameras use
>> >> complex
>> >> matrix reflectance metering, and most pros rely
>> upon that
>> >> as a
>> >> starting point, which the histogram for fine
>> tuning...
>> >>
>> >> As classic shooters of film negative, we have
>> >> different requirements
>> >> than most shooters today. With 12+ stops of
>> contrast range
>> >> often at
>> >> our disposal, prime lenses and cameras on tripods,
>> our
>> >> metering
>> >> requirements are often very different from the
>> vast
>> >> majority of
>> >> shooters out there...
>> >>
>> >> I have used incident metering very often in my
>> previous
>> >> life as a
>> >> film-maker, but this was always coupled with film
>> tests to
>> >> determine
>> >> reflectance and contrast, which must always be
>> accounted
>> >> for some how
>> >> if what you are shooting counts...
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Yahoo! Cocina
>> >
>> > Encontra las mejores recetas con Yahoo! Cocina.
>> >
>> >
>> > http://ar.mujer.yahoo.com/cocina/
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>
>
> Yahoo! Cocina
>
> Encontra las mejores recetas con Yahoo! Cocina.
>
>
> http://ar.mujer.yahoo.com/cocina/
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