Andreas. To say "Muslim's arrive" is quite correct. I don't know what you mean by suggesting it isn't. As to saying Arabs converted to Islam, that could be misleading because the Arabs created Islam. Islam and the Arabs were identical for several generations. You find many Arabs today thinking they are first class Muslims while those of other races are second class, because Islam began with them. Israel, if they were as strict about following their Bible as the Islamists are who follow the Islamist version of the Koran would be interested in much more land than they've settled for, for God gave it to Abraham. Abraham couldn't move in right away because the sins of the Amorites were not yet full. A nation was built from the sons of Jacob while in captivity in Egypt and by that time the land was ready to be occupied. God left people in the land so wild animals wouldn't overrun it, but these people were to be conquered. Intermarriage with them was forbidden. But according to the Bible, the land did belong to the Children of Abraham, and it belonged to the children of Jacob even though some tribes needed to be driven out. You write, "Lawrence: get this clearly: they weren't fighting to defend their land. They massacred, terrorized, and raped to get land," and quote Benny Morris as your authority. I've read several books about this period but not one that substantiates your claim, but you are right to guess I haven't read Benny Morris. I've read reviews, and this far left revisionist historian isn't high on my list of authors to read. As near as I can tell he is doing for Israel what Ward Churchill is doing for America. While I haven't read Morris, I did subscribe to the Middle East Quarterly for a few years and have great respect for their positions and the articles that appear there. Here is an article about Benny Morris from the MEQ: http://www.meforum.org/article/466 Lawrence -----Original Message----- From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Andreas Ramos Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 3:10 PM To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Link to "Mohammed" cartoons From: "Lawrence Helm" <lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx> > I should have said the Jews have lived in Palestine > since the Exodus. The Muslims if you are interested didn't get there until > around the 7th century A.D., I've got the date somewhere if anyone is > interesting. The Muslims didn't "arrive" because Islam is a religion, not a race. The Arabs converted to Islam. Lawrence, you have a remarkable ability to see only what you want to see. You read history books, but only those that support your preconceptions. You don't question the author's intentions. If an author ignores something, you ignore it as well. You won't read other books on the issue. Look up Exodus 23:22-33. It's in Torah and the Bible. It states that there were many tribes in the area; the invaders slaughtered them. Israel has a right to the land? Yes, but only right by conquest. It wasn't their land orginally. Torah clearly states that. As for modern Israel, that's a very complex story. It's complex because the political intentions have changed repeatedly in the last 150 years or so, and some of these ideas are out of fashion now. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel The Holocaust complexifies the issues almost infinitely. Although ignored at first, Israel later in the 50s realized the Holocaust could be used for political reasons. By aligning Israel with the Holocaust, Israel became the victim. Thus anything is justified, because Israel can not be criticized. > I admire the Jews because they are willing to fight for their land. They don't whimper, > they don't whine and they are damned fine warriors. Benny Morris, an Israeli professor of history, has been looking at how the modern state of Israel was founded. He isn't a critic by any means; he is a strong supportive of the state. He has written about the systematic use of atrocities, the terrorism, rape, the slaughter of entire villages, and so on by Israeli army to drive out Arabs. "Damned fine warriors" indeed. This is called "Transferism" (transfer the Arabs out of Israel, or drive them out). This strategy was not a "few bad apples"; it came from Ben-Gurion himself and was policy. Seize the land, drive out the inhabitants, take it over. Morris, and other hardline Israeli, defend Transferism: as he says, without it, there would be no Israel. Lawrence: get this clearly: they weren't fighting to defend their land. They massacred, terrorized, and raped to get land. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=380986&contrassID=2&su bContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y yrs, andreas www.andreas.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off, digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html