Hi Laura, I accept that nothing is perfect, but I think we can reasonably expect that others would work cooperatively with us to insure accessibility for everyone. I just think that the need for accessibility is far different than a need for backward compatibility. Darrell Shandrow - Shandrow Communications! Technology consultant/instructor, network/systems administrator! A+, CCNA, Network+! Check out high quality telecommunications services at http://ld.net/?nu7i All the best to coalition forces carrying out Operation Iraqi Freedom! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laura Eaves" <leaves1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 1:57 PM Subject: [guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit format. > Hi Will -- > That is interesting, and I ran into that all the time when I was still > working at AT&T -- I was at one point trying to put screen magnification > code into the underlying implementation of X-Windows on unix, which I > couldn't use at all the way I was set up, but which some applications > required that I needed to use. > I spoke a few times to a researcher there who was familiar with this code, > and he refused to work on it, saying it was much better to just get a good > magnifier and read the screen of the PC or workstation that way -- not > taking into account that in a GUI you need a way of quickly navigating to > the current point of focus -- be int cursor or top window or mouse icon -- > and so a software solution was the only practical way of doing it. > Anyway, I dropped that and just got by not using the X applications, even > though I wasted a lot of time poring through the code to see how hard it > would be to put the hooks in and maybe if successful, submit it as an > enhancement to the general source. > > But usability is really at least as important as just basic possibility of > seeing something -- I also ran into this the first screen reader I checked > into in 1990 -- it was so awkward to use even though it greatly sped up my > reading of long email messages -- that I finally ditched it and continued > reading with my diminishing vision. > > Just my thoughts and experiences. > Take care. > And technology changes so rapidly, along with alternate solutions to > things, > that I really don't think insisting on one particular solution is always > the > right thing, as someone else might come up with a better method. > --le > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Will Pearson" <will-pearson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 3:44 PM > Subject: [guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit format. > > >> Darrell; >> >> I'm not sure as to your first point, but as to the second and third, we >> need >> to take a close look at what accessibility means. In the world of Human >> Computer Interaction, as yes, accessibility applies equally to everyone >> and >> not just to someone who has a disability, there's several definitions >> used: >> >> * Accessibility >> - Just focusing on whether someone can use something, and takes into >> account >> no other attributes of the interaction >> >> * Usability >> - Prescribed by an ISO standard on usability, and looks at factors of an >> interaction such as efficiency, accuracy, ease of use and even >> enjoyability >> and satisfaction. Basically it covers how well someone can perform an >> interaction. >> >> I believe that legally these are the two definitions that would be used. >> Section 508 guidelines deal purely with whether someone can use >> something, >> not how well they can use it, and over here in the UK, the Disability >> Rights >> Commission have issued guidance that accessibility of the web will be >> based >> on priority A, and maybe priority AA, of the W3C's WCAG, which mainly >> deals >> with whether someone can use something, and again, not how well they can >> use >> it. So, the spirit of the legislation would suggest to me, that legally >> accessibility is purely concerned with whether someone can use something, >> not how well they can use it. Thus points 2 and 3 that you raise may >> prove >> to be a very weak case if legal proceedings were to be brought against >> you. >> >> Will >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Darrell Shandrow" <nu7i@xxxxxxxxxx> >> To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 8:13 PM >> Subject: [guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit format. >> >> >>> Hi Will, >>> >>> As I understand it, TTS is extremely limited in at least the following >> ways: >>> 1. >>> Some books don't work with it. >>> 2. >>> Speech quality is sufficiently poor as to bring its practicality in to >>> question. >>> 3. >>> It is just a straight read, with no capability to navigate through a >>> book. >>> >>> Am I correct on these three points? >>> >>> Darrell Shandrow - Shandrow Communications! >>> Technology consultant/instructor, network/systems administrator! >>> A+, CCNA, Network+! >>> Check out high quality telecommunications services at >>> http://ld.net/?nu7i >>> All the best to coalition forces carrying out Operation Iraqi Freedom! >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Will Pearson" <will-pearson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>> To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 1:06 PM >>> Subject: [guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit format. >>> >>> >>> > Darrell; >>> > >>> > At the end of the day I'm an advocate for accessibility too, the >>> > number >> of >>> > bugs I've reported to Microsoft regarding accessibility of their >> products, >>> > especially Visual Studio, stands testament to that. However, I >>> > believe >>> > breaking the law is one step too far, especially where there already >>> > exists >>> > a legal method of making something accessible, in this case the TTS >>> > plug-in >>> > for Reader. Whilst it may not be my method of choice, it is legal and >>> > does >>> > afford accessibility to the .lit format. >>> > >>> > Will >>> > ----- Original Message ----- >>> > From: "Darrell Shandrow" <nu7i@xxxxxxxxxx> >>> > To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>> > Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 7:45 PM >>> > Subject: [guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit format. >>> > >>> > >>> >> Hi David, >>> >> >>> >> OK. Possibly true. When it comes to accessibility, I'm not afraid >>> >> to >>> > take >>> >> liberties with that definition. If I got in to trouble over it, I >> would >>> > not >>> >> hesitate to use my blindness as a media/public relations tool. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Darrell Shandrow - Shandrow Communications! >>> >> Technology consultant/instructor, network/systems administrator! >>> >> A+, CCNA, Network+! >>> >> Check out high quality telecommunications services at >> http://ld.net/?nu7i >>> >> All the best to coalition forces carrying out Operation Iraqi >>> >> Freedom! >>> >> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >> From: "david poehlman" <david.poehlman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>> >> To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>> >> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 12:42 PM >>> >> Subject: [guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit format. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> > You need to read the drm documentation carefully. You cannot do >>> > anything >>> >> > you want with a copy of a book that you purchase that is in >> electronic >>> >> > form >>> >> > such as reverse engineer it. The book in this instance is a piece >>> >> > of >>> >> > software and in order to accomplish what you want, you'd have to >>> >> > reverse >>> >> > engineer it. >>> >> > >>> >> > Johnnie Apple Seed >>> >> > >>> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >>> >> > From: "Darrell Shandrow" <nu7i@xxxxxxxxxx> >>> >> > To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>> >> > Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 2:07 PM >>> >> > Subject: [guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit >>> >> > format. >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > Hi Will, >>> >> > >>> >> > Hmmm, well, legally, if I purchase a Microsoft E-book file, I can >>> >> > do >>> >> > whatever it is I need to do in order to gain access, for my own >>> >> > personal >>> >> > use. What probably is not legal is for me to proceed to distribute >>> >> > that >>> >> > file to others. I find it amazing that MS Reader does not permit >>> >> > printing. >>> >> > Sighted people love to take on-screen info and send it to our >> printers >>> > at >>> >> > work right away. My employer spends lots of money on consumables >>> >> > for >>> >> > printers! >>> >> > >>> >> > Darrell Shandrow - Shandrow Communications! >>> >> > Technology consultant/instructor, network/systems administrator! >>> >> > A+, CCNA, Network+! >>> >> > Check out high quality telecommunications services at >>> > http://ld.net/?nu7i >>> >> > All the best to coalition forces carrying out Operation Iraqi >> Freedom! >>> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >>> >> > From: "Will Pearson" <will-pearson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>> >> > To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>> >> > Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 11:51 AM >>> >> > Subject: [guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit >>> >> > format. >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> >> Hi; >>> >> >> >>> >> >> AFAIK, it doesn't allow printing. As an aside, I doubt the >> legitimacy >>> > of >>> >> >> using OCR seeing as the TTS plug-in is provided to make Reader >>> >> >> accessible. >>> >> >> I'm not a legal expert, but would imagine that this would only be >>> >> >> permissible in situations where the TTS plug-in offered no output, >>> >> >> such >>> >> >> as >>> >> >> .lit files composed of scanned images. I think this is slightly >>> >> >> different >>> >> >> in the UK, where there is no law governing accessibility of >>> >> >> eBooks, >>> >> >> and >>> >> >> instead it's left up to the old laws governing photocopying of >> books, >>> > in >>> >> >> which OCR, or at least scanning, of a limited portion of a book is >>> >> >> allowed. >>> >> >> >>> >> >> I am looking into the possibility of getting reader to work with >>> >> >> at >>> > least >>> >> >> one of the popular screen readers with a friend from Microsoft. >>> >> >> Hopefully >>> >> >> something will come out of this. >>> >> >> >>> >> >> Will >>> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >> >> From: "Darrell Shandrow" <nu7i@xxxxxxxxxx> >>> >> >> To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>> >> >> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 6:12 PM >>> >> >> Subject: [guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit >>> >> >> format. >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >>> Hi Will and all, >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> Does MS Reader permit you to print pages from books? If so, has >>> > anyone >>> >> >>> tried this with the virtual printer facilities of K1000 or >> OpenBook? >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> Darrell Shandrow - Shandrow Communications! >>> >> >>> Technology consultant/instructor, network/systems administrator! >>> >> >>> A+, CCNA, Network+! >>> >> >>> Check out high quality telecommunications services at >>> >> >>> http://ld.net/?nu7i >>> >> >>> All the best to coalition forces carrying out Operation Iraqi >>> >> >>> Freedom! >>> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >> >>> From: "Will Pearson" <will-pearson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>> >> >>> To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>> >> >>> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 9:03 AM >>> >> >>> Subject: [guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit >> format. >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> > Hi; >>> >> >>> > >>> >> >>> > I wouldn't like to say at the moment. The legality of this is >>> > unsure. >>> >> >> In >>> >> >>> > the U.S. legislation exists that states it's legal to convert >>> >> >>> > ebooks >>> >> >>> > to >>> >> >>> > another format if they are inaccessible, but the big question >>> >> >>> > is, >>> >> >>> > by >>> >> >>> > providing a TTS plug-in for Reader, is the format considered >>> >> >>> > accessible? >>> >> >>> > I >>> >> >>> > know in the UK, you can use OCR to store only a part of a book >>> >> >>> > on >>> > your >>> >> >>> > computer, and this prohibits distribution or alteration of the >>> >> >>> > content. >>> >> >>> > Outside of the UK and US I don't know anything about the >>> >> >>> > legality >>> >> >>> > of >>> >> >> this >>> >> >>> > sort of situation, and I wouldn't like to offer advice that may >>> >> >>> > mean >>> >> >>> > you >>> >> >>> > break the law and are subsequently open to prosicution. >>> >> >>> > >>> >> >>> > I'm currently discussing the point with some folk from MS UK, >>> >> >>> > who >> I >>> >> >>> > suspect, >>> >> >>> > being the format vendor, are in a position to make a judgement >>> >> >>> > on >>> >> >>> > th >>> > e >>> >> >>> > legality. I'll post more when I hear something from MS. >>> >> >>> > >>> >> >>> > Thanks, >>> >> >>> > >>> >> >>> > Will >>> >> >>> > Microsoft MVP (Visual Studio/VC++) >>> >> >>> > ----- Original Message ----- >>> >> >>> > From: "Nektarios Mallas" <nmallas@xxxxxxxxx> >>> >> >>> > To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>> >> >>> > Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 3:47 PM >>> >> >>> > Subject: [guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit >>> >> >>> > format. >>> >> >>> > >>> >> >>> > >>> >> >>> >> Thanks for this. >>> >> >>> >> Do you know if there is any other way to extract the text from >> the >>> >> >> *.lit >>> >> >>> >> file and read it in other standard programs? >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Nektarios. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> -----Original Message----- >>> >> >>> >> From: guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] >>> >> >>> >> On >>> >> >>> >> Behalf >>> >> >>> >> Of Will Pearson >>> >> >>> >> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 3:55 PM >>> >> >>> >> To: guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> >> >>> >> Subject: [guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit >>> > format. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Hi; >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Whilst MS Reader isn't supported by any of the screen readers, >>> > there >>> >> >>> >> is >>> >> >>> >> a plug in. Microsoft have provided a text to speech plug in >>> >> >>> >> for >>> >> >>> >> Reader >>> >> >>> >> that will read aloud the document. It's based on MS SAPI, and >>> >> >>> >> uses >>> >> >>> >> the >>> >> >>> >> standard SAPI synth that ships with Windows. You can find a >>> > download >>> >> >>> >> for this from the Reader downloads page. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Will >>> >> >>> >> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >> >>> >> From: "Nektarios Mallas" <nmallas@xxxxxxxxx> >>> >> >>> >> To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>> >> >>> >> Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 6:39 AM >>> >> >>> >> Subject: [guispeak] Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit >>> >> >>> >> format. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> > Hello list. >>> >> >>> >> > Is Microsoft ebook reader accessible by screen readers? Is >> there >>> >> >>> >> > any >>> >> >>> >> > other way to access a *.lit file and extract the text from >>> >> >>> >> > it >> so >>> >> >>> >> > you >>> >> >>> >> > can read it with standard applications such as wordpad? >> Thanks. >>> >> >>> >> > Nektarios. >>> >> >>> >> > >>> >> >>> >> > >>> >> >>> >> > ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following >> link:- >>> >> >>> >> > ** >>> >> >>> >> > [mailto:ddots-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] >>> >> >>> >> > ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: >>> >> >>> >> > ** ddots-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> >> >>> >> > ** and in the Subject line type >>> >> >>> >> > ** unsubscribe >>> >> >>> >> > ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on >>> >> >>> >> > the >>> >> >>> >> > ** immediately-following link:- >>> >> >>> >> > ** [mailto:ddots-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] >>> >> >>> >> > ** or send a message, to >>> >> >>> >> > ** ddots-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq >>> >> 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