[guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit format.
- From: "Will Pearson" <will-pearson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 22:12:47 -0000
Accessibility and backwards compatibility are the same thing. Backwards
compatibility ensures something is accessible to those with older
technology.
Will
----- Original Message -----
From: "Darrell Shandrow" <nu7i@xxxxxxxxxx>
To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 9:05 PM
Subject: [guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit format.
> Hi Laura,
>
> I accept that nothing is perfect, but I think we can reasonably expect
that
> others would work cooperatively with us to insure accessibility for
> everyone. I just think that the need for accessibility is far different
> than a need for backward compatibility.
>
> Darrell Shandrow - Shandrow Communications!
> Technology consultant/instructor, network/systems administrator!
> A+, CCNA, Network+!
> Check out high quality telecommunications services at http://ld.net/?nu7i
> All the best to coalition forces carrying out Operation Iraqi Freedom!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Laura Eaves" <leaves1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 1:57 PM
> Subject: [guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit format.
>
>
> > Hi Will --
> > That is interesting, and I ran into that all the time when I was still
> > working at AT&T -- I was at one point trying to put screen magnification
> > code into the underlying implementation of X-Windows on unix, which I
> > couldn't use at all the way I was set up, but which some applications
> > required that I needed to use.
> > I spoke a few times to a researcher there who was familiar with this
code,
> > and he refused to work on it, saying it was much better to just get a
good
> > magnifier and read the screen of the PC or workstation that way -- not
> > taking into account that in a GUI you need a way of quickly navigating
to
> > the current point of focus -- be int cursor or top window or mouse
icon --
> > and so a software solution was the only practical way of doing it.
> > Anyway, I dropped that and just got by not using the X applications,
even
> > though I wasted a lot of time poring through the code to see how hard it
> > would be to put the hooks in and maybe if successful, submit it as an
> > enhancement to the general source.
> >
> > But usability is really at least as important as just basic possibility
of
> > seeing something -- I also ran into this the first screen reader I
checked
> > into in 1990 -- it was so awkward to use even though it greatly sped up
my
> > reading of long email messages -- that I finally ditched it and
continued
> > reading with my diminishing vision.
> >
> > Just my thoughts and experiences.
> > Take care.
> > And technology changes so rapidly, along with alternate solutions to
> > things,
> > that I really don't think insisting on one particular solution is always
> > the
> > right thing, as someone else might come up with a better method.
> > --le
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Will Pearson" <will-pearson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 3:44 PM
> > Subject: [guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit format.
> >
> >
> >> Darrell;
> >>
> >> I'm not sure as to your first point, but as to the second and third, we
> >> need
> >> to take a close look at what accessibility means. In the world of
Human
> >> Computer Interaction, as yes, accessibility applies equally to everyone
> >> and
> >> not just to someone who has a disability, there's several definitions
> >> used:
> >>
> >> * Accessibility
> >> - Just focusing on whether someone can use something, and takes into
> >> account
> >> no other attributes of the interaction
> >>
> >> * Usability
> >> - Prescribed by an ISO standard on usability, and looks at factors of
an
> >> interaction such as efficiency, accuracy, ease of use and even
> >> enjoyability
> >> and satisfaction. Basically it covers how well someone can perform an
> >> interaction.
> >>
> >> I believe that legally these are the two definitions that would be
used.
> >> Section 508 guidelines deal purely with whether someone can use
> >> something,
> >> not how well they can use it, and over here in the UK, the Disability
> >> Rights
> >> Commission have issued guidance that accessibility of the web will be
> >> based
> >> on priority A, and maybe priority AA, of the W3C's WCAG, which mainly
> >> deals
> >> with whether someone can use something, and again, not how well they
can
> >> use
> >> it. So, the spirit of the legislation would suggest to me, that
legally
> >> accessibility is purely concerned with whether someone can use
something,
> >> not how well they can use it. Thus points 2 and 3 that you raise may
> >> prove
> >> to be a very weak case if legal proceedings were to be brought against
> >> you.
> >>
> >> Will
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Darrell Shandrow" <nu7i@xxxxxxxxxx>
> >> To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 8:13 PM
> >> Subject: [guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit format.
> >>
> >>
> >>> Hi Will,
> >>>
> >>> As I understand it, TTS is extremely limited in at least the following
> >> ways:
> >>> 1.
> >>> Some books don't work with it.
> >>> 2.
> >>> Speech quality is sufficiently poor as to bring its practicality in to
> >>> question.
> >>> 3.
> >>> It is just a straight read, with no capability to navigate through a
> >>> book.
> >>>
> >>> Am I correct on these three points?
> >>>
> >>> Darrell Shandrow - Shandrow Communications!
> >>> Technology consultant/instructor, network/systems administrator!
> >>> A+, CCNA, Network+!
> >>> Check out high quality telecommunications services at
> >>> http://ld.net/?nu7i
> >>> All the best to coalition forces carrying out Operation Iraqi Freedom!
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Will Pearson" <will-pearson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 1:06 PM
> >>> Subject: [guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit format.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> > Darrell;
> >>> >
> >>> > At the end of the day I'm an advocate for accessibility too, the
> >>> > number
> >> of
> >>> > bugs I've reported to Microsoft regarding accessibility of their
> >> products,
> >>> > especially Visual Studio, stands testament to that. However, I
> >>> > believe
> >>> > breaking the law is one step too far, especially where there already
> >>> > exists
> >>> > a legal method of making something accessible, in this case the TTS
> >>> > plug-in
> >>> > for Reader. Whilst it may not be my method of choice, it is legal
and
> >>> > does
> >>> > afford accessibility to the .lit format.
> >>> >
> >>> > Will
> >>> > ----- Original Message -----
> >>> > From: "Darrell Shandrow" <nu7i@xxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> > To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> > Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 7:45 PM
> >>> > Subject: [guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit format.
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >> Hi David,
> >>> >>
> >>> >> OK. Possibly true. When it comes to accessibility, I'm not afraid
> >>> >> to
> >>> > take
> >>> >> liberties with that definition. If I got in to trouble over it, I
> >> would
> >>> > not
> >>> >> hesitate to use my blindness as a media/public relations tool.
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Darrell Shandrow - Shandrow Communications!
> >>> >> Technology consultant/instructor, network/systems administrator!
> >>> >> A+, CCNA, Network+!
> >>> >> Check out high quality telecommunications services at
> >> http://ld.net/?nu7i
> >>> >> All the best to coalition forces carrying out Operation Iraqi
> >>> >> Freedom!
> >>> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> >> From: "david poehlman" <david.poehlman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> >> To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> >> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 12:42 PM
> >>> >> Subject: [guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit
format.
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> > You need to read the drm documentation carefully. You cannot do
> >>> > anything
> >>> >> > you want with a copy of a book that you purchase that is in
> >> electronic
> >>> >> > form
> >>> >> > such as reverse engineer it. The book in this instance is a
piece
> >>> >> > of
> >>> >> > software and in order to accomplish what you want, you'd have to
> >>> >> > reverse
> >>> >> > engineer it.
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> > Johnnie Apple Seed
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> >>> >> > From: "Darrell Shandrow" <nu7i@xxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> >> > To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> >> > Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 2:07 PM
> >>> >> > Subject: [guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit
> >>> >> > format.
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> > Hi Will,
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> > Hmmm, well, legally, if I purchase a Microsoft E-book file, I can
> >>> >> > do
> >>> >> > whatever it is I need to do in order to gain access, for my own
> >>> >> > personal
> >>> >> > use. What probably is not legal is for me to proceed to
distribute
> >>> >> > that
> >>> >> > file to others. I find it amazing that MS Reader does not permit
> >>> >> > printing.
> >>> >> > Sighted people love to take on-screen info and send it to our
> >> printers
> >>> > at
> >>> >> > work right away. My employer spends lots of money on consumables
> >>> >> > for
> >>> >> > printers!
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> > Darrell Shandrow - Shandrow Communications!
> >>> >> > Technology consultant/instructor, network/systems administrator!
> >>> >> > A+, CCNA, Network+!
> >>> >> > Check out high quality telecommunications services at
> >>> > http://ld.net/?nu7i
> >>> >> > All the best to coalition forces carrying out Operation Iraqi
> >> Freedom!
> >>> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> >>> >> > From: "Will Pearson" <will-pearson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> >> > To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> >> > Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 11:51 AM
> >>> >> > Subject: [guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit
> >>> >> > format.
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >> Hi;
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >> AFAIK, it doesn't allow printing. As an aside, I doubt the
> >> legitimacy
> >>> > of
> >>> >> >> using OCR seeing as the TTS plug-in is provided to make Reader
> >>> >> >> accessible.
> >>> >> >> I'm not a legal expert, but would imagine that this would only
be
> >>> >> >> permissible in situations where the TTS plug-in offered no
output,
> >>> >> >> such
> >>> >> >> as
> >>> >> >> .lit files composed of scanned images. I think this is slightly
> >>> >> >> different
> >>> >> >> in the UK, where there is no law governing accessibility of
> >>> >> >> eBooks,
> >>> >> >> and
> >>> >> >> instead it's left up to the old laws governing photocopying of
> >> books,
> >>> > in
> >>> >> >> which OCR, or at least scanning, of a limited portion of a book
is
> >>> >> >> allowed.
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >> I am looking into the possibility of getting reader to work with
> >>> >> >> at
> >>> > least
> >>> >> >> one of the popular screen readers with a friend from Microsoft.
> >>> >> >> Hopefully
> >>> >> >> something will come out of this.
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >> Will
> >>> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> >> >> From: "Darrell Shandrow" <nu7i@xxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> >> >> To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> >> >> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 6:12 PM
> >>> >> >> Subject: [guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit
> >>> >> >> format.
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >>> Hi Will and all,
> >>> >> >>>
> >>> >> >>> Does MS Reader permit you to print pages from books? If so,
has
> >>> > anyone
> >>> >> >>> tried this with the virtual printer facilities of K1000 or
> >> OpenBook?
> >>> >> >>>
> >>> >> >>> Darrell Shandrow - Shandrow Communications!
> >>> >> >>> Technology consultant/instructor, network/systems
administrator!
> >>> >> >>> A+, CCNA, Network+!
> >>> >> >>> Check out high quality telecommunications services at
> >>> >> >>> http://ld.net/?nu7i
> >>> >> >>> All the best to coalition forces carrying out Operation Iraqi
> >>> >> >>> Freedom!
> >>> >> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> >> >>> From: "Will Pearson" <will-pearson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> >> >>> To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> >> >>> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 9:03 AM
> >>> >> >>> Subject: [guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit
> >> format.
> >>> >> >>>
> >>> >> >>>
> >>> >> >>> > Hi;
> >>> >> >>> >
> >>> >> >>> > I wouldn't like to say at the moment. The legality of this
is
> >>> > unsure.
> >>> >> >> In
> >>> >> >>> > the U.S. legislation exists that states it's legal to convert
> >>> >> >>> > ebooks
> >>> >> >>> > to
> >>> >> >>> > another format if they are inaccessible, but the big question
> >>> >> >>> > is,
> >>> >> >>> > by
> >>> >> >>> > providing a TTS plug-in for Reader, is the format considered
> >>> >> >>> > accessible?
> >>> >> >>> > I
> >>> >> >>> > know in the UK, you can use OCR to store only a part of a
book
> >>> >> >>> > on
> >>> > your
> >>> >> >>> > computer, and this prohibits distribution or alteration of
the
> >>> >> >>> > content.
> >>> >> >>> > Outside of the UK and US I don't know anything about the
> >>> >> >>> > legality
> >>> >> >>> > of
> >>> >> >> this
> >>> >> >>> > sort of situation, and I wouldn't like to offer advice that
may
> >>> >> >>> > mean
> >>> >> >>> > you
> >>> >> >>> > break the law and are subsequently open to prosicution.
> >>> >> >>> >
> >>> >> >>> > I'm currently discussing the point with some folk from MS UK,
> >>> >> >>> > who
> >> I
> >>> >> >>> > suspect,
> >>> >> >>> > being the format vendor, are in a position to make a
judgement
> >>> >> >>> > on
> >>> >> >>> > th
> >>> > e
> >>> >> >>> > legality. I'll post more when I hear something from MS.
> >>> >> >>> >
> >>> >> >>> > Thanks,
> >>> >> >>> >
> >>> >> >>> > Will
> >>> >> >>> > Microsoft MVP (Visual Studio/VC++)
> >>> >> >>> > ----- Original Message -----
> >>> >> >>> > From: "Nektarios Mallas" <nmallas@xxxxxxxxx>
> >>> >> >>> > To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> >> >>> > Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 3:47 PM
> >>> >> >>> > Subject: [guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit
> >>> >> >>> > format.
> >>> >> >>> >
> >>> >> >>> >
> >>> >> >>> >> Thanks for this.
> >>> >> >>> >> Do you know if there is any other way to extract the text
from
> >> the
> >>> >> >> *.lit
> >>> >> >>> >> file and read it in other standard programs?
> >>> >> >>> >>
> >>> >> >>> >> Nektarios.
> >>> >> >>> >>
> >>> >> >>> >>
> >>> >> >>> >> -----Original Message-----
> >>> >> >>> >> From: guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> >>> >> >>> >> On
> >>> >> >>> >> Behalf
> >>> >> >>> >> Of Will Pearson
> >>> >> >>> >> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 3:55 PM
> >>> >> >>> >> To: guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> >> >>> >> Subject: [guispeak] Re: Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit
> >>> > format.
> >>> >> >>> >>
> >>> >> >>> >>
> >>> >> >>> >> Hi;
> >>> >> >>> >>
> >>> >> >>> >> Whilst MS Reader isn't supported by any of the screen
readers,
> >>> > there
> >>> >> >>> >> is
> >>> >> >>> >> a plug in. Microsoft have provided a text to speech plug in
> >>> >> >>> >> for
> >>> >> >>> >> Reader
> >>> >> >>> >> that will read aloud the document. It's based on MS SAPI,
and
> >>> >> >>> >> uses
> >>> >> >>> >> the
> >>> >> >>> >> standard SAPI synth that ships with Windows. You can find a
> >>> > download
> >>> >> >>> >> for this from the Reader downloads page.
> >>> >> >>> >>
> >>> >> >>> >> Will
> >>> >> >>> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> >> >>> >> From: "Nektarios Mallas" <nmallas@xxxxxxxxx>
> >>> >> >>> >> To: <guispeak@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> >> >>> >> Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 6:39 AM
> >>> >> >>> >> Subject: [guispeak] Microsoft ebook reader and the *.lit
> >>> >> >>> >> format.
> >>> >> >>> >>
> >>> >> >>> >>
> >>> >> >>> >> > Hello list.
> >>> >> >>> >> > Is Microsoft ebook reader accessible by screen readers? Is
> >> there
> >>> >> >>> >> > any
> >>> >> >>> >> > other way to access a *.lit file and extract the text from
> >>> >> >>> >> > it
> >> so
> >>> >> >>> >> > you
> >>> >> >>> >> > can read it with standard applications such as wordpad?
> >> Thanks.
> >>> >> >>> >> > Nektarios.
> >>> >> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >>> >> >
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