Ooohhhh, puzzles....these take a lot of time, but then again, did I say I spend a lot of time on planes? These are a great way to pass the time in the air, barring that you don't need internet access to figure out the answer. Mike...if you ever need a puzzle running buddy let me know...ever now and again, I spend the weekend in STL. Love numbers too, but solving a puzzle or doing a multi is a nice change of pace...just depends on your mind set prior to setting out. PS: I think the weekend of the 19th may see me here versus there Cindy J. Spurr Freelance Writer (757) 432-1423 Web site: www.creativeace.com Alt email: cindys@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ----- Original Message ---- From: Michael Griffin <mike.griffin@xxxxxxxxxx> To: geocaching@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Tuesday, January 8, 2008 3:02:28 PM Subject: [GeoStL] Was Walmart Now Flying Toads I think we miss the point of the caches. It is not so some guy in a wheelchair can't play, it is asking permission which is the basis of any cache. It clearly states that permission MUST BE OBTAINED PRIOR to placing any cache. If it is a hassle to get permission, we shouldn't place one with the Oh Well attitude. We should do the homework and make sure we obtain permission. However, I totally agree that SLAGA is not the enforcing agency on caches. We are a social club and should not condemn or support any kind of hides. Everything is personal preference. I don't like light poles and guardrails, but I do them :-) I don't like McDonalds or Wal-Mart caches no matter how they are placed, but I do them! :-) However, I don't like the fact that I could go to Jail because someone was too lazy to ask permission before placing a cache. I recently, as did HappyKraut, replaced all my permission forms for all caches at Busch and Weldon Spring. During that process, it became very clear that all the properties John Vogel manages do not have legal caches on them. He knows this and has let us slide. How long before he decides enough is enough and prohibits caching on all his managed lands. Permits are helpful in the fact that it is a 2 way agreement. I would feel much better doing a cache on private property where the owner has placed on the cache page his permission from statement. I will do caches that I don't necessary like because I too am a numbers hound. I am NOT afraid to say I love numbers. Although I haven't logged several of the caches I have done in the past 6 months, I like to watch my numbers. Ok, Last topic since this is about Geocaching and not food. Larry and myself were talking about how the numbers have killed the muticaches and puzzles. I use to make a puzzle cache run for 1 or 2 caches. Now, unless I go alone, no one wants to do 1 or 2. Everyone wants to do 60 or 100 or 500 in a weekend. Only if someone has solved a puzzle down to the final will someone do a difficult puzzle. Case and Point was the Mummy Cache. In 2 years, I had 32 finds. Here is what is amazing - From Sept - Dec in 2005 I had 20 finders, in all of 2006 I had 6 finders and in 2007 until archived late October, I had 6 finders. With the number of new cachers out there, most are getting their training from the old timers that are teaching them it is all about numbers. Stats, Light poles and Guardrails are the result of numbers. Remember, I said I was a numbers hound, no hypocrisy, just observations. Ok - I am really done. I am headed out here in Boston and going to grab a few Guardrails and Light poles. Mike Griffin From: geocaching-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:geocaching-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of JimSGreene@xxxxxxx Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 2:11 PM To: geocaching@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [GeoStL] Re: Walmart light pole In a message dated 1/8/2008 12:28:25 P.M. Central Standard Time, junkmailno@xxxxxxxxxxx writes: I think a good service SLAGA could provide is to have people who can tactfully contact cache placers who place problematic caches. They could work with them to fix the problem. I suspect that would be better than some of us less tactful people pointing out the problem in a cache log. Jim, I disagree with this statement, any problematic caches should be reported to the local approver for them to handle. They are paid big money to handle that sort of thing. As far as lamp post or easy caches, they serve a purpose too, they are great for those with mobility issues, and people looking for some quick finds. If placed according to guidelines, I don't have a problem with them. They can be ok, and sometimes they can be a nice surprise when a new trick shows up. Let's not get into any sort of condemnation of anything, this sport has lots of room for all types of hides, enjoy the game. Strider Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year.