"Ok - I am really done. I am headed out here in Boston and going to grab a few Guardrails and Light poles." See if you can locate a cache or two while you're grabbing. And, watch out for those flying toads. I hear they're fierce. Nancy ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Griffin To: geocaching@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 3:02 PM Subject: [GeoStL] Was Walmart Now Flying Toads I think we miss the point of the caches. It is not so some guy in a wheelchair can't play, it is asking permission which is the basis of any cache. It clearly states that permission MUST BE OBTAINED PRIOR to placing any cache. If it is a hassle to get permission, we shouldn't place one with the Oh Well attitude. We should do the homework and make sure we obtain permission. However, I totally agree that SLAGA is not the enforcing agency on caches. We are a social club and should not condemn or support any kind of hides. Everything is personal preference. I don't like light poles and guardrails, but I do them :-) I don't like McDonalds or Wal-Mart caches no matter how they are placed, but I do them! :-) However, I don't like the fact that I could go to Jail because someone was too lazy to ask permission before placing a cache. I recently, as did HappyKraut, replaced all my permission forms for all caches at Busch and Weldon Spring. During that process, it became very clear that all the properties John Vogel manages do not have legal caches on them. He knows this and has let us slide. How long before he decides enough is enough and prohibits caching on all his managed lands. Permits are helpful in the fact that it is a 2 way agreement. I would feel much better doing a cache on private property where the owner has placed on the cache page his permission from statement. I will do caches that I don't necessary like because I too am a numbers hound. I am NOT afraid to say I love numbers. Although I haven't logged several of the caches I have done in the past 6 months, I like to watch my numbers. Ok, Last topic since this is about Geocaching and not food. Larry and myself were talking about how the numbers have killed the muticaches and puzzles. I use to make a puzzle cache run for 1 or 2 caches. Now, unless I go alone, no one wants to do 1 or 2. Everyone wants to do 60 or 100 or 500 in a weekend. Only if someone has solved a puzzle down to the final will someone do a difficult puzzle. Case and Point was the Mummy Cache. In 2 years, I had 32 finds. Here is what is amazing - From Sept - Dec in 2005 I had 20 finders, in all of 2006 I had 6 finders and in 2007 until archived late October, I had 6 finders. With the number of new cachers out there, most are getting their training from the old timers that are teaching them it is all about numbers. Stats, Light poles and Guardrails are the result of numbers. Remember, I said I was a numbers hound, no hypocrisy, just observations. Ok - I am really done. I am headed out here in Boston and going to grab a few Guardrails and Light poles. Mike Griffin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------