Roger wrote,, "Here's a laugh for you. Recently I made a comment on
the Bookshare..."
Well Roger, it's no laugh for me. I guess the best I can give it is
to say that it is sad. We can't even discuss our differences without
becoming so enraged that we send hate mail to anyone who has a
different opinion than ours. And this is the mentality that is going
to lead the world to universal peace?
As far as labels go, I hate them. I listen to people's opinions, I
read books on a wide range of topics, and never allow them to be
tucked into little boxes.
For example, the so called republican debates. The label, Republican,
has no effect upon what these clowns are saying. I hear the same
foolishness from all sorts of politicians, bearing all sorts of
labels. I don't dismiss them out of hand. I wait until I hear what
they have to say, and then send them packing regardless of what banner
they are flying under.
So I read stuff and never put it into a category. Well, that is, I do
put it into either, Like or Dislike. If some author is trying to sell
religion to their readers, they had better be clever about it if they
want to keep my attention. But if I criticize some writer's theme as
being clumsy or thinly veiled proselytizing, and I am attacked
off-list, I have learned to dismiss it as small-mindedness. I used to
think I might be able to have an open discussion with these people.
Silly thinking.
But I do enjoy good writing and learn from many sources without being
drawn into their world.
Carl Jarvis
On 9/19/15, abdulah aga <abdulahhasic@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi all
Roger, bob, Alice and other whom I forget but they are talk about this
subject.
I want let you know that people didn’t change from stone age,
so it is not problem because ordinary people didn’t change, but problem is
that science thinks same way.
I have one good book for all of you,
from Amin Maluf I am not Shure am I spell good but he wright
book call lion of Africa's.
In this book say how people from defrents religion fight with each other and
how they are make coalition with each other agenst other,
Catholics including Pop try making allies with Muslim agenst Carle 5. and so
on so on.
So when you thinks about this
you making statement that Hitler's politics work work Eder wi want admit or
not even to day.
From: Roger Loran Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 10:25 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: What Irony!
As part of the wider science fiction community I can certainly see why they
would have a hard time getting their work accepted. Science fiction that
pushes religion is like a mainstream Christian church pushing satanism.
On 9/18/2015 10:29 PM, R. E. Driscoll Sr wrote:
All:
Please consider this as being a minor effort at adding some information to
various contributions have been made.
R. E. (Dick) Driscoll, Sr.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_science_fiction
Christian science fiction
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Christian science fiction is a subgenre of both Christian literature and
science fiction, in which there are strong Christian themes, or which are
written from a Christian point of view.[1] These themes may be subtle,
expressed by way of analogy, or more explicit.[2] Major influences include
early science fiction authors such as C. S. Lewis, while more recent figures
include Stephen Lawhead. Authors writing in this subgenre face particular
difficulties reconciling aspects of science with their Christian beliefs,
which may lead to difficulties having their work accepted by the wider
science fiction community.[3]
The term is not usually applied to works simply because most or all of the
characters are Christian, or simply because the author is Christian.
On 9/18/2015 2:44 PM, Roger Loran Bailey (Redacted sender rogerbailey81
for DMARC) wrote:
Pushing religion and including religion are not the same thing. I have
read many science fiction stories in which religion was included and there
was no attempt to promote it as a preferred world view. This so-called
Christian fiction, whether it is Christan romance or Christian something
else overtly promotes Christianity. And again, I was unaware of a subgenre
of science fiction that would be Christian science fiction in the same sense
that there is Christian romance, for example, until I scanned that book
Guardian Redeemed for Bookshare. Even then, based on only one book, I was
not quite aware that it was an entire subgenre. It was the request on the
Bookshare discussion list that clued me in and I realized that the one I had
scanned must have been one. The overt pushing of Christianity showed up only
occasionally in it, but if I take the novel as a whole it becomes apparent
that pushing Christianity was really the main point. That is, the religion
that was most discussed was a fictional religion of a species of space
aliens called the Chicondrans. There was frequent statements of how
different that religion was from any Earth religion, but in its actual
description it was clear that it was a lot less different from Christianity
than a lot of real Earthly religions are. The protagonist was a human woman
who was a Christian and she fits in very well with the aliens and their
culture and participates in their religious rituals. I am pretty sure that
the point that was being made was that the alien religion and Christianity
were only different aspects of some universal religion and that Christianity
was surely the true religion as a universal religion. I suppose that was
kind of a soft pushing of Christianity, but other so-called Christian
religion can be much more heavy handed.
On 9/18/2015 3:20 PM, Alice Dampman Humel wrote:
Maybe include? as in,science fiction that includes religion, has a
religious component, or religious slant
I haven’t read the book yet, and I don’t remember what it is called,
actually, I think there are a couple of books by this author, perhaps about
the same characters, was Gilead one of them? Miriam read them, I think, and
I remember her saying something to the effect that although there was
definitely a Christian milieu as a very real part of these novels, she did
not feel smothered by it like it was a pillow held over her nose and
mouth…did I get that right, Miriam?
Anyhow, I think that is very different from something like that odious
John Paul Evans or whoever he is…before I knew who he was, I began reading
one of his books, and I was so infuriated. The fundamentalist Christian air
was so thick, you could have cut it with a knife...
This should make you all laugh…before I knew who Glen Beck was, I read
a book, novel, he had written… again, I was so outraged and nauseated, I
looked him up, and, oh yes, did I ever find out who he is…
As for a “real science fiction fan?” Well, some like their hot dogs
with mustard, some with relish, some with ketchup and some with the works,
including chili and onions…they all would claim to be hot dog aficionados,
and of course, each would claim that the others have it all wrong...
On Sep 18, 2015, at 2:39 PM, Roger Loran Bailey (Redacted sender
"rogerbailey81" for DMARC) <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Well, the matters that were discussed off list would have been
extremely off topic for the list and would have violated list guidelines so
taking it off list was appropriate. As for the phraseology, there is a big
difference between discussing the subject of religion and pushing religion.
I suppose I could have said proselytizing or propagandizing or something
else, but I really have a hard time thinking of a word that conveys the
meaning that would not set off the bible thumpers. And it was clear that
that was the kind of science fiction that the person was looking for. It is
not what I would expect a real science fiction fan to want.
On 9/18/2015 12:28 PM, Alice Dampman Humel wrote:
Roger,
I suspect that the phraseology “pushing religion” and its
permutations is yours, and it might be the obvious pejorative “pushing” that
caused the flareup, although, admittedly, with the religious
fundamentalists, it doesn’t take much…
You yourself recognize one of these writers of religious science
fiction to be good, and perhaps the book you scanned would have been bad
writing even without the religion. In the example of Zenna Henderson,
apparently there’s enough religion in there to satisfy those looking for it,
but she was not crossing the line and “pushing” the religion, so it did not
disturb or offend you.
I do find these people of whatever stripe who go off list with
their hate mail when someone says something they don’t like to be extremely
distasteful…it’s so cowardly and dishonest. If a person has something to
contribute to a public discussion, then he should do so publicly, not hide
behind closed doors and snipe at another person in secret.
On Sep 17, 2015, at 10:20 PM, Roger Loran Bailey (Redacted sender
"rogerbailey81" for DMARC) <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Lana posted a message asking for recommendations of Christian
science fiction. That really sounds like a contradiction in terms to me and
as a science fiction fan I was not even aware of such a subgenre except for
the fact that I had just recently finished scanning one. I didn't know what
it was before I started scanning it or I would not have done so. A number of
people started making recommendations of authors who happen to be Christian.
One of them was Zenna Henderson. I have read some of her stories and I was
never aware of any religious affiliation she might have and I never noticed
that she used her writing to push religion, so I don't think that was what
was being asked for. I made a post myself about the book I had scanned and
said that I didn't like it and I would not recommend it, but it sounded like
what was being asked for. That book is still in the approval queue and
should enter the collection soon. The discussion started morphing into
something about religion in science fiction. Since science is the study of
reality and since religion is a part of reality religion is just as good a
topic for a science fiction story as any other part of reality. However,
these people were talking as if science fiction that pushes religion is the
most normal thing in the world. Now, I am a long time science fiction fan
and I was not even aware of such a subgenre and, like I said, it sounds like
a contradiction in terms. Nevertheless, I had just scanned a book that seems
to fit that subgenre and it was terrible. I mean that even without the
religious stuff the writing was awful and it attempts to push religion sure
didn't help. Since the conversation had turned that way and since I was a
science fiction fan it seemed to be appropriate for me to offer my opinion
just like everyone else was doing and so I made my remark about how it
didn't seem like something that a science fiction fan would be interested in
because religion is the enemy of science. That was an innocent remark that
was relevant to the conversation. It was not an attack on religion out of
the blue. But that was when everyone went ballistic. There were a few
acrimonious messages on list and fortunately it died down pretty quickly,
but I also started receiving private hate mail. The hate mail has not died
down except that one of them did state to me that he did not want to
continue discussion today because I was a bully. That might be the first
signs of it dying down. Since I did not contact him privately and since he
contacted me and immediately launched into the vitriol I thought that was
funny that he thought that I was the one who was the bully and so I
mentioned it here. Anyway, the whole bunch of them are busily reinforcing my
image of religious types as hateful bullies. It's just like that other story
I told you about. The one in which I was sitting on a bench minding my own
business and found myself being asked if I know Jesus. I calmly replied that
I was an atheist and found myself being chased down the street being
screamed at. That was not a gratuitous attack on religion either. It was an
answer to a question and I would have found it equally as funny if I had
been called the bully in that situation. Okay, they have their identities, I
have my identity too and they have no respect for it. It seems to me that if
you want respect you have to earn it. You earn it by giving respect. If
someone refuses to give respect I really don't see how I owe respect to
them.
On 9/17/2015 9:44 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
I certainly didn't know about the private emails. But I am
curious about
something. What is religious science fiction? I mean, what
were they talking
about?
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Roger Loran
Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2015 9:17 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: What Irony!
I think you misunderstood. You did not read the exchanges I
was talking
about. They were emailing me privately to bash me over the
head with
religion. Anyway, I did not bash religion gratuitously. What I
had to say
was germaine to the discussion. I forget my exact words now,
but it was
something like science fiction is the fiction that was founded
and continues
to promote science and I don't see why a fan of science
fiction would want
to read science fiction that pushes religion. It was science
fiction that
pushes religion that was being talked about and I joined in on
the
conversation. I only made one or two other posts saying that
using science
fiction for pushing religion results in poor writing.
As for their identities, well, I have an identity too. If they
have no
interest in respecting my identity then I have no reason to
respect theirs.
They need to grow up and understand that there are other world
views than
theirs.
On 9/17/2015 8:40 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
Well, I read some of those interchanges, and then I stopped
reading them.
And I am not taking the side of the proponents of religious
science
fiction which, to me, with my lack of knoledge of science
fiction,
does sound like a contradiction in terms, anyway. But I can
explain
why this person, or others, perceived you as a bully. The
reason is
that you gave your opinion of religion when no one asked for
it. No
one was discussing the value or validity of religion. In
fact, most of
them feel that their religious beliefs are part of their
identity. So
when you say something negative about religion in general,
it feels to
them, like a personal attack. And to add insult to injury,
you
expressed a negative opinion about religion gratuitously. So
they felt
attacked by you or bullied by you, and it seemed to them, to
just come out
of the blue.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Roger Loran
Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2015 8:07 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] What Irony!
Here's a laugh for you. Recently I made a comment on the
Bookshare
list that I think science fiction that pushes religion makes
for poor
writing.
Actually, I think that any attempt to use fiction to push
religion
results in poor writing, but the topic was specifically
about science
fiction. Well, that caused several people to start emailing
me to bash
me over the head with religion, bash me over the head and
engage in
name calling and insults too. I have a policy anymore of
standing up
to religious bullies even if not on the same level as they
launch
their attacks. I just respond to them using reason to show
them where
they are going wrong. Well, I backed one of them into a
corner today and
he had no response to the logic trap I set for him.
Wouldn't you know it. He calls me a bully and breaks off
communication. Take note that I did not contact him or any
of these
people. I only responded to what they were saying to me,
though in a
much more civil manner than they did. Yet, somehow I am the
bully?
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