Hi all
Roger, bob, Alice and other whom I forget but they are talk about this subject.
I want let you know that people didn’t change from stone age,
so it is not problem because ordinary people didn’t change, but problem is
that science thinks same way.
I have one good book for all of you,
from Amin Maluf I am not Shure am I spell good but he wright
book call lion of Africa's.
In this book say how people from defrents religion fight with each other and
how they are make coalition with each other agenst other,
Catholics including Pop try making allies with Muslim agenst Carle 5. and so on
so on.
So when you thinks about this
you making statement that Hitler's politics work work Eder wi want admit or not
even to day.
From: Roger Loran Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 10:25 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: What Irony!
As part of the wider science fiction community I can certainly see why they
would have a hard time getting their work accepted. Science fiction that pushes
religion is like a mainstream Christian church pushing satanism.
On 9/18/2015 10:29 PM, R. E. Driscoll Sr wrote:
All:
Please consider this as being a minor effort at adding some information to
various contributions have been made.
R. E. (Dick) Driscoll, Sr.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_science_fiction
Christian science fiction
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Christian science fiction is a subgenre of both Christian literature and
science fiction, in which there are strong Christian themes, or which are
written from a Christian point of view.[1] These themes may be subtle,
expressed by way of analogy, or more explicit.[2] Major influences include
early science fiction authors such as C. S. Lewis, while more recent figures
include Stephen Lawhead. Authors writing in this subgenre face particular
difficulties reconciling aspects of science with their Christian beliefs, which
may lead to difficulties having their work accepted by the wider science
fiction community.[3]
The term is not usually applied to works simply because most or all of the
characters are Christian, or simply because the author is Christian.
On 9/18/2015 2:44 PM, Roger Loran Bailey (Redacted sender rogerbailey81 for
DMARC) wrote:
Pushing religion and including religion are not the same thing. I have read
many science fiction stories in which religion was included and there was no
attempt to promote it as a preferred world view. This so-called Christian
fiction, whether it is Christan romance or Christian something else overtly
promotes Christianity. And again, I was unaware of a subgenre of science
fiction that would be Christian science fiction in the same sense that there is
Christian romance, for example, until I scanned that book Guardian Redeemed for
Bookshare. Even then, based on only one book, I was not quite aware that it was
an entire subgenre. It was the request on the Bookshare discussion list that
clued me in and I realized that the one I had scanned must have been one. The
overt pushing of Christianity showed up only occasionally in it, but if I take
the novel as a whole it becomes apparent that pushing Christianity was really
the main point. That is, the religion that was most discussed was a fictional
religion of a species of space aliens called the Chicondrans. There was
frequent statements of how different that religion was from any Earth religion,
but in its actual description it was clear that it was a lot less different
from Christianity than a lot of real Earthly religions are. The protagonist was
a human woman who was a Christian and she fits in very well with the aliens and
their culture and participates in their religious rituals. I am pretty sure
that the point that was being made was that the alien religion and Christianity
were only different aspects of some universal religion and that Christianity
was surely the true religion as a universal religion. I suppose that was kind
of a soft pushing of Christianity, but other so-called Christian religion can
be much more heavy handed.
On 9/18/2015 3:20 PM, Alice Dampman Humel wrote:
Maybe include? as in,science fiction that includes religion, has a
religious component, or religious slant
I haven’t read the book yet, and I don’t remember what it is called,
actually, I think there are a couple of books by this author, perhaps about the
same characters, was Gilead one of them? Miriam read them, I think, and I
remember her saying something to the effect that although there was definitely
a Christian milieu as a very real part of these novels, she did not feel
smothered by it like it was a pillow held over her nose and mouth…did I get
that right, Miriam?
Anyhow, I think that is very different from something like that odious
John Paul Evans or whoever he is…before I knew who he was, I began reading one
of his books, and I was so infuriated. The fundamentalist Christian air was so
thick, you could have cut it with a knife...
This should make you all laugh…before I knew who Glen Beck was, I read a
book, novel, he had written… again, I was so outraged and nauseated, I looked
him up, and, oh yes, did I ever find out who he is…
As for a “real science fiction fan?” Well, some like their hot dogs with
mustard, some with relish, some with ketchup and some with the works, including
chili and onions…they all would claim to be hot dog aficionados, and of course,
each would claim that the others have it all wrong...
On Sep 18, 2015, at 2:39 PM, Roger Loran Bailey (Redacted sender
"rogerbailey81" for DMARC) <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Well, the matters that were discussed off list would have been
extremely off topic for the list and would have violated list guidelines so
taking it off list was appropriate. As for the phraseology, there is a big
difference between discussing the subject of religion and pushing religion. I
suppose I could have said proselytizing or propagandizing or something else,
but I really have a hard time thinking of a word that conveys the meaning that
would not set off the bible thumpers. And it was clear that that was the kind
of science fiction that the person was looking for. It is not what I would
expect a real science fiction fan to want.
On 9/18/2015 12:28 PM, Alice Dampman Humel wrote:
Roger,
I suspect that the phraseology “pushing religion” and its
permutations is yours, and it might be the obvious pejorative “pushing” that
caused the flareup, although, admittedly, with the religious fundamentalists,
it doesn’t take much…
You yourself recognize one of these writers of religious science
fiction to be good, and perhaps the book you scanned would have been bad
writing even without the religion. In the example of Zenna Henderson,
apparently there’s enough religion in there to satisfy those looking for it,
but she was not crossing the line and “pushing” the religion, so it did not
disturb or offend you.
I do find these people of whatever stripe who go off list with their
hate mail when someone says something they don’t like to be extremely
distasteful…it’s so cowardly and dishonest. If a person has something to
contribute to a public discussion, then he should do so publicly, not hide
behind closed doors and snipe at another person in secret.
On Sep 17, 2015, at 10:20 PM, Roger Loran Bailey (Redacted sender
"rogerbailey81" for DMARC) <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Lana posted a message asking for recommendations of Christian
science fiction. That really sounds like a contradiction in terms to me and as
a science fiction fan I was not even aware of such a subgenre except for the
fact that I had just recently finished scanning one. I didn't know what it was
before I started scanning it or I would not have done so. A number of people
started making recommendations of authors who happen to be Christian. One of
them was Zenna Henderson. I have read some of her stories and I was never aware
of any religious affiliation she might have and I never noticed that she used
her writing to push religion, so I don't think that was what was being asked
for. I made a post myself about the book I had scanned and said that I didn't
like it and I would not recommend it, but it sounded like what was being asked
for. That book is still in the approval queue and should enter the collection
soon. The discussion started morphing into something about religion in science
fiction. Since science is the study of reality and since religion is a part of
reality religion is just as good a topic for a science fiction story as any
other part of reality. However, these people were talking as if science fiction
that pushes religion is the most normal thing in the world. Now, I am a long
time science fiction fan and I was not even aware of such a subgenre and, like
I said, it sounds like a contradiction in terms. Nevertheless, I had just
scanned a book that seems to fit that subgenre and it was terrible. I mean that
even without the religious stuff the writing was awful and it attempts to push
religion sure didn't help. Since the conversation had turned that way and since
I was a science fiction fan it seemed to be appropriate for me to offer my
opinion just like everyone else was doing and so I made my remark about how it
didn't seem like something that a science fiction fan would be interested in
because religion is the enemy of science. That was an innocent remark that was
relevant to the conversation. It was not an attack on religion out of the blue.
But that was when everyone went ballistic. There were a few acrimonious
messages on list and fortunately it died down pretty quickly, but I also
started receiving private hate mail. The hate mail has not died down except
that one of them did state to me that he did not want to continue discussion
today because I was a bully. That might be the first signs of it dying down.
Since I did not contact him privately and since he contacted me and immediately
launched into the vitriol I thought that was funny that he thought that I was
the one who was the bully and so I mentioned it here. Anyway, the whole bunch
of them are busily reinforcing my image of religious types as hateful bullies.
It's just like that other story I told you about. The one in which I was
sitting on a bench minding my own business and found myself being asked if I
know Jesus. I calmly replied that I was an atheist and found myself being
chased down the street being screamed at. That was not a gratuitous attack on
religion either. It was an answer to a question and I would have found it
equally as funny if I had been called the bully in that situation. Okay, they
have their identities, I have my identity too and they have no respect for it.
It seems to me that if you want respect you have to earn it. You earn it by
giving respect. If someone refuses to give respect I really don't see how I owe
respect to them.
On 9/17/2015 9:44 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
I certainly didn't know about the private emails. But I am
curious about
something. What is religious science fiction? I mean, what were
they talking
about?
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Roger
Loran
Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2015 9:17 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: What Irony!
I think you misunderstood. You did not read the exchanges I was
talking
about. They were emailing me privately to bash me over the head
with
religion. Anyway, I did not bash religion gratuitously. What I
had to say
was germaine to the discussion. I forget my exact words now, but
it was
something like science fiction is the fiction that was founded
and continues
to promote science and I don't see why a fan of science fiction
would want
to read science fiction that pushes religion. It was science
fiction that
pushes religion that was being talked about and I joined in on the
conversation. I only made one or two other posts saying that
using science
fiction for pushing religion results in poor writing.
As for their identities, well, I have an identity too. If they
have no
interest in respecting my identity then I have no reason to
respect theirs.
They need to grow up and understand that there are other world
views than
theirs.
On 9/17/2015 8:40 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
Well, I read some of those interchanges, and then I stopped
reading them.
And I am not taking the side of the proponents of religious
science
fiction which, to me, with my lack of knoledge of science
fiction,
does sound like a contradiction in terms, anyway. But I can
explain
why this person, or others, perceived you as a bully. The
reason is
that you gave your opinion of religion when no one asked for
it. No
one was discussing the value or validity of religion. In fact,
most of
them feel that their religious beliefs are part of their
identity. So
when you say something negative about religion in general, it
feels to
them, like a personal attack. And to add insult to injury, you
expressed a negative opinion about religion gratuitously. So
they felt
attacked by you or bullied by you, and it seemed to them, to
just come out
of the blue.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Roger Loran
Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2015 8:07 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] What Irony!
Here's a laugh for you. Recently I made a comment on the
Bookshare
list that I think science fiction that pushes religion makes
for poor
writing.
Actually, I think that any attempt to use fiction to push
religion
results in poor writing, but the topic was specifically about
science
fiction. Well, that caused several people to start emailing me
to bash
me over the head with religion, bash me over the head and
engage in
name calling and insults too. I have a policy anymore of
standing up
to religious bullies even if not on the same level as they
launch
their attacks. I just respond to them using reason to show them
where
they are going wrong. Well, I backed one of them into a corner
today and
he had no response to the logic trap I set for him.
Wouldn't you know it. He calls me a bully and breaks off
communication. Take note that I did not contact him or any of
these
people. I only responded to what they were saying to me, though
in a
much more civil manner than they did. Yet, somehow I am the
bully?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com
